Yeah, as long as you don't start a run on these injectors on eBay. I need one more set for a car I recently acquired and am grousing about having to pay $90 shipped for a set when Rousch was selling new takeoffs with 3 miles on them a few years back for $49 shipped.
Wow those injector pulsewidths are wacky! Almost looks like one of the data streams is getting smoothed or something. The cold start one is really wacky. If you have dual exhaust, do the tailpipes smell different?
Last edited by sherlock9c1; 02-10-2019 at 03:52 PM.
Are your individual cylinder trims all set to 1 or have you tweaked them?Originally Posted by Terminal_Crazy
All I'm saying is you seem to be continuously chasing ghosts and the modded injectors seem like they might be the common thread.
Sounds like the run is already on. $90 for 8 sounded like a good deal to me so I grabbed a set this morning that had that part # specified in the main / short description. But in the seller description after the seller specified they came off a 2016, the part # they give seems to be the 2018-19 small injector (JR3E-9F593-AB). So I'm already off on the wrong foot.
No. I've measured the difference in AFR by dropping each cylinder & scaling off one of the centre results.
I'm out of ideas.
These are from Fuel Injector Clinic -http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/ls1-ls6/IS301-0445H
... These injectors utilize the latest technology and provide great linearity and short pulse width repeatability.
After several sets, I'm fairly comfident it's not the injectors.
Don't you just love this hobby :-)
Mtch
'95 Z28 M6 -Just the odd mod.
'80 350 A3 C3 Corvette - recent addition.
Just done a warmup with a base log.
http://www.sand-hill.uk/Terminal_Cra...une-Warmup.jpg
http://www.sand-hill.uk/Terminal_Cra...-Warmup.eedata
I altered the bare minimum
12B4C * Injector Flow Rate changed from 24.912 lbs/HR
129D5 * Injector Voltage Offsets changed.
129F5 Injector Offset Adder changed.
129F5 Injector Offset Adder changed.
126d5 Min Injector Pulse changed from 1.40 BPW (0x005C)
126d7 use this value when MIN inj pulse reached changed
12B4E Cylinder Volume changed from 717.25 ml/Cyl
12BEE * VE Table - Primary (400-2000RPM) changed.
12C8A * VE Table - Extended (2000-7000RPM) changed.
Forgot to switch off the MAF
EGR,EAS (AIR pump) AND 1-4 control DTC's Not switched off.
Sounded much louder & rougher idle but only 800rpm
It went CL when Splits 121-133 appeared so of course PW don't match.
Questions
Why do Inj PW start off different in those earlier logs?
I thought OL didn't use the O2's
BLM's under 128 are not remembered
The 2 scalars
126d5 Min Injector Pulse changed from 1.40 BPW (0x005C)
126d7 use this value when MIN inj pulse reached changed
I had them sat at 0.79 which is where these injectors should operate (min Inj switching)
Is this too low ???
This is idling around 2ms. I was around 1.65.
Lowest PW went down to about 1.0...
IF I set it around 1.00 it shouldn't go lower than that and go any leaner than what 1.00 would inject.
ie IF PCM requests 0.8 mS we still get 1.00 worth of fuel ?
Inj Offset Adder table tually starts adding fuel at 1.220 mS now
PCM hardly ever went below 1.00mS as AFAIR even with the Black Ops in.
Mitch
'95 Z28 M6 -Just the odd mod.
'80 350 A3 C3 Corvette - recent addition.
I'm sure that's the right part number. I've been watching several of those auctions and the 2018-2019 ones have a white clip around the upper ends of them. Immediately contact the seller if there's any confusion. eBay gives buyers an hour to back out for any reason and you can also cancel if the item is not as advertised.
Last edited by sherlock9c1; 12-28-2018 at 01:11 AM.
It is. I asked the seller to cancel and hope that's the last I hear of it. The seller is clear in the short and long description that they're off a 2016 5.0, but if you zoom in on the second image you can faintly make out JR3E-9F593-AB. That's the smaller 2018 and up injector right?
These can be bought new from a particular large volume retailer for $33 each. That's actually not bad for a new piece. A far cry from $50 for a set of 8 but still...
Mitch is it possible you've got the wrong injector data? Those don't look to be modified injectors so maybe they aren't. You mention the offset adder coming in at 1220 us now. I haven't pulled the specs off their site yet but that seems odd. Most of these newer injectors flow higher in the low pulsewidth slope, which the $EE mask doesn't support so everyone just zeros it out. However, I've never seen mine idle below 1.4ms while it was a 355 / 5.7l.
No Idea.
The Web page publishes data for them.
Data sheet in the box is slighty different.
And the "Flow matched set aren't all the same value on the sheet. SN on injectors don't match sheet.
Seems to be the norm.
42lb
42.5lb@3bar
44.1 @ 47.psi
Flow rate is now currently set at 38.511 with VE's to match as it was very lean.
I'd HOPE a company publishes correct info but who knows.
I got "data" for the slope.
I had to write software to Interpolate it to get it to fit our tables, the same as the Voltage offsets and fuel pressure vs flow rate.
I had "slid" the table along to add more fuel down low for the last few runs.
That worked somewhat for the Black Ops injectors.
I read on Tuner groups where you dial in 14.7 AFR and that's it.
I feel this is trying to balance on the head of a pin.
Keep going fatter with no change until suddenly it's pig rich 12-13 but nice and stable
or
lean it back a bit & it's 15-17 AFR and erratic.
Mitch
'95 Z28 M6 -Just the odd mod.
'80 350 A3 C3 Corvette - recent addition.
Does anyone know what the following tables do?
2692 IAC Adder - AC pressure -
OK That one seems obvious.
I was going to zero it out as the AFR guage is on the AC.... Don't want it opening IAC when we go lean right?
20CD ac Low Pressure charge vs table -
What does it do ?
WAS all 255 - Do I zero this out?
20DA ac low charge vs table - and this ?
20E7 ac low charge vs table - and this ?
TIA
Mitch
'95 Z28 M6 -Just the odd mod.
'80 350 A3 C3 Corvette - recent addition.
These look like a particularly good fit also. Do you know of any reason to shy away from buying the Bosch branded part versus one in Motorcraft packaging? The Bosch branded ones seem to be significantly less expensive.
This statement is somewhat troubling, and sort of the salient point of my concern about the subject. For what you paid for those you should be able to plug a known flow # into the IFC field and be done.
I'm by no means an expert, but I think you should be aiming to have the IFC as close to actual as possible. kur4o suggested this to me a while back and it highlighted a flaw in my tuning methodology that I think you might be practicing also. Anyone with better knowledge please jump in and correct me if wrong, but... If you need more room in your VE table you should be scaling your cylinder volume constant because it's only utilized for speed density calcs. The IFC is used by both speed density and MAF calculations - MAF being a fairly cut and dried one; air mass * target afr = reqired fuel mass, then (required fuel mass / IFC) + offset = base pw.
Conversely, if you wanted to find your IFC without having injector data I would think you'd want to be using MAF in OL and compare your wideband to commanded AFR. However with cam overlap you'll want to avoid doing this at lower airflows because of the effect of reversion. Also, you'd still really need to have an accurate offset vs. voltage table at the very least. I don't think there's a truly objective way to find injector offset in-situ.
I'm a big fan of science. Not such a big fan of hope.
This is even more troubling - are you saying you were using one of the injector constant tables to try and alter fueling? That will definitely cause the ecu to do weird things. The point I've been trying to get across here is if what I'm reading is correct (and I have no reason to dispute it) the ecu needs dead accurate injector data to characterize the fluid dynamics of the injectors. Without it accurate fuel control goes out the window. Once you have accurate data, tuning should be a lot less difficult.
I'll try to get a look at the published specs and see what the low slope looks like for your latest injectors. It's highly possible you don't need anything in the low pulsewidth adder table and that could be causing you some grief.
In regard to your questions on the AC pressure IAC compensators, I may also be completely wrong here but I'm relatively sure those only apply if the compressor request line is enabled. If the clutch isn't engaged the compressor can't effect engine load. But I would have to defer to someone who understands the disassembly better for confirmation of that theory.
Last edited by spfautsch; 12-28-2018 at 08:11 PM.
Appologies to anyone if this thread has gone off topic or been hijacked somewhat.
I have another 2 images of the last start
http://www.sand-hill.uk/Terminal_Cra...se_start_1.jpg
http://www.sand-hill.uk/Terminal_Cra...Log/base-2.jpg
The 1st shows a really BIG difference in the injector PW on cold startup. about 2mS & 6mS initially.
IF this is SDOL (NO MAF, 11C and car not run for 24 Hrs)... WHY is the injector pulse 3 times bigger on the RHS?
Even if i unplugged 1 bank of injectors surely the PCM should'n't know or care at this point?
I did a quick unplug of the injectors and sprayed switch cleaner on all contacts & got the 2nd log
where both InjPW are very similar.
Just another quirk.
I did get another bunch of odd DTC's bounce on and off like i've mentioned before
43 & 43D - Knock sensors - OK LH bank had no fuel so I get those two.
99 Tach output circuit - switched off - still appeared.
97 VSS 4K pulses circuit fault
They have usually gone away after a brief time, maybe related to the lean issue
O2's don't show anything but they are cold. InjPW is not something I've doggedly watched previously.
I never drive until it's hit 86C anyway.
What I have realised is I'm using a socketed PCM with no known provenance so I've ordered another.
I did resocket the last one I bricked but the Prom programmer socket went tits up after I'd flashed several E side chips and I haven't gone back to it.
Hi Scott,Originally Posted by Terminal_Crazy View Post
Flow rate is now currently set at 38.511 with VE's to match as it was very lean.This statement is somewhat troubling, and sort of the salient point of my concern about the subject. For what you paid for those you should be able to plug a known flow # into the IFC field and be done.
I'm by no means an expert, but I think you should be aiming to have the IFC as close to actual as possible. kur4o suggested this to me a while back and it highlighted a flaw in my tuning methodology that I think you might be practicing also. Anyone with better knowledge please jump in and correct me if wrong, but... If you need more room in your VE table you should be scaling your cylinder volume constant because it's only utilized for speed density calcs. The IFC is used by both speed density and MAF calculations - MAF being a fairly cut and dried one; air mass * target afr = reqired fuel mass, then (required fuel mass / IFC) + offset = base pw.
Ok whilst I don't entirely disagree and will accept any form of discussion...but...
(Sliding the low PW adder table along was just a recent hack to help dump fuel in.
Excess fuel in the VE is pulled out by the BLM's in CL )
I am tuning Speed Density currently.
The Cylinder size is one faily accurate known value in the calculation.
IF I was _just_ changing injectors, my VE table would be "correct"
IF the Injector data was "accurate" as I read from Greg Banish etc the injectors should swap with the new data with no issues.
The way I see it, I only know the flow rate at 1 point, (OK 5 voltages and 4 pressures) but NOT the slope
These injectors are Significantly leaner at 42# then the BlackOps at 42# and we have no provision to alter the slope Other than changing the VE table.
If the VE maxes out I can change either Flow rate or Cylinder size... I know what the cylinder size is.
Again, that's presumingConversely, if you wanted to find your IFC without having injector data I would think you'd want to be using MAF in OL and compare your wideband to commanded AFR. However with cam overlap you'll want to avoid doing this at lower airflows because of the effect of reversion. Also, you'd still really need to have an accurate offset vs. voltage table at the very least. I don't think there's a truly objective way to find injector offset in-situ.
your AFR guage is correct and accurate.
Your MAF table is accurate.
Since my MAF was "ported" by the previous owner I should have no idea how innacurate it could be.
Well I did actually log & calculate it years ago to correct the MAF table.
15 years on, is it still accurate ?
Agreed & see above.Quote Originally Posted by Terminal_Crazy View Post
I had "slid" the table along to add more fuel down low for the last few runs.This is even more troubling - are you saying you were using one of the injector constant tables to try and alter fueling? That will definitely cause the ecu to do weird things. The point I've been trying to get across here is if what I'm reading is correct (and I have no reason to dispute it) the ecu needs dead accurate injector data to characterize the fluid dynamics of the injectors. Without it accurate fuel control goes out the window. Once you have accurate data, tuning should be a lot less difficult.
I'd be interested to see what you come up with just for comparisonI'll try to get a look at the published specs and see what the low slope looks like for your latest injectors. It's highly possible you don't need anything in the low pulsewidth adder table and that could be causing you some grief.
It goes lean. Increasing the VE is OK in OL, a fat AFR down to 13.5 ish is stable. CL just pulls it back out
Aha, I hadn't thought of that. Excellent.In regard to your questions on the AC pressure IAC compensators, I may also be completely wrong here but I'm relatively sure those only apply if the compressor request line is enabled. If the clutch isn't engaged the compressor can't effect engine load. But I would have to defer to someone who understands the disassembly better for confirmation of that theory.
Thanks
Mitch
(Think I'll go back to bed, it's half three in the morning. )
'95 Z28 M6 -Just the odd mod.
'80 350 A3 C3 Corvette - recent addition.
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