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Thread: SA tables

  1. #31
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayingWithTBI View Post
    FWIW - I just tried @84Elky's Spreadsheet (set to 32* @ 3200RPM) on my TBI with aluminum heads and a fairly mild Lunati Voodoo cam (208/213). It seems to pull better throughout but, I do have some KRs at higher MAPs and RPMs up around 5200.
    Agree with Fast355 that dyno is only way to really measure objectively, but SOTP feel for most is all that's practical.

    PlayingWithTBI - Sounds like all-in might be reduced to 30-31* to see if knocks go away. Would be interested in what you notice if you maintained spark at all-in value after all-in RPM; or decreased it, but much less than currently. My bet is not much difference noticed if at all. IMO, the area above all-in spark (that is if at proper RPM), contributes very little if any to HP or torque and is hardly noticeable unless an all out race car on a dyno.

  2. #32
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    I see some similarities between the T.Wong $OD Performance SA table and $8D AUJP SA Table.

    dave w
    Very interesting Dave. But look at all the gyrations. No way anyone could come up with a spark map like that without a dyno. That's why I chose to develop the smooth curve.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Agree with Fast355 that dyno is only way to really measure objectively, but SOTP feel for most is all that's practical.

    PlayingWithTBI - Sounds like all-in might be reduced to 30-31* to see if knocks go away. Would be interested in what you notice if you maintained spark at all-in value after all-in RPM; or decreased it, but much less than currently. My bet is not much difference noticed if at all. IMO, the area above all-in spark (that is if at proper RPM), contributes very little if any to HP or torque and is hardly noticeable unless an all out race car on a dyno.
    I'll try it @ 30* and flatten out the decrease above 3200RPM. I have a Dakota Digital dash that can time ETs 0-60 and 1/4 mile (plus trap speed). With this mild cam, aluminum heads, and 46mm TB, etc. I am getting 0-60 in 7.5 seconds in my 88 C1500. I could do better but, off the line I have to take it easy with my open diff (4.11 gears) or I just sit and spin with 275/60-R15 Cooper Cobra GT tires. Anyway, I know this SA map helped quite a bit over what I had (I modified one of the EBL .bins before).

  4. #34
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    Here's what I did; the first SA & KC are with it set @30* and I decreased the reduction of advance to 1* for 2 cells the 1 more for the next 2 cells. I went to Wally's World to get some wood pellets for my grill but didn't do a 0-60, just a couple hard accelerations. Don't pay any attention to the 70Kpa and below, that was when the engine was warming up.

    The 2nd set of snips are with the original SA table set at 30*. It just shows a 0-60 (with 80lbs of pellets in the back). I got better bite off the line but was 1/10th of a second slower than with 32*

    Edit; Not a lot of difference between the 2, maybe go back to 32* and more ramp down? BTW, I got KRs in 1st gear but not in 2nd...
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    Last edited by PlayingWithTBI; 04-01-2020 at 01:39 AM.

  5. #35
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    Sorry @RooThunder if I hijacked your thread, hope this helps.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayingWithTBI View Post
    The 2nd set of snips are with the original SA table set at 30*. It just shows a 0-60 (with 80lbs of pellets in the back). I got better bite off the line but was 1/10th of a second slower than with 32*

    Edit; Not a lot of difference between the 2, maybe go back to 32* and more ramp down? BTW, I got KRs in 1st gear but not in 2nd...
    Interesting. 32* may be the sweet spot if not slightly more. Generally AL heads can tolerate more spark than iron, naturally subject to chamber design, comp ratio and octane. Your spark is more in the iron range, except Vortec which are lower (26-30). But regardless, it doesn't seem the after-all-in spark decrease is the issue. Rather, it's the reduction before getting there (32 to 30).

    Don't want to be chasing too may things at once, but it's possible the 1st gear knock may be false (vibration, headers hitting frame, etc.). Generally would expect more knock later in the accel because lower gear ratio = more torque in 1st results less overall load. Generally would see knocks later on. What if you accelerate hard in 1st and immediately let off accelerator, and then repeat in 2nd. Any knocks with 0% TPS = vibration? Can also check knock tolerance at low MPH in 3rd or 4th and heavily accelerate without down-shifting if auto, thus creating load.

  7. #37
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    Thanks for the input, it makes sense to me. Maybe a little more info - here's the link to my heads, FWIU they're a "fast burn" design with slant plugs. You can click on the picture and select 360* view to see the chamber design.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...make/chevrolet

    The bottom end is stock dished pistons (maybe ~12cc?). I'll try your suggestions with chasing down KCs, it did seem a little weird that almost all my counts were in 1st gear. The KCs in higher revs like >4800 were in 2nd. My 700R4 shifts from 1st - 2nd at ~4960RPM and it stays in 2nd until I let off the gas - that's a different story (phase 2, 600HP from Trans Depot w/2300-2500TC). Maybe go to 34* @ 3400? IDK - just guessing here, I know it likes higher SA at launch.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayingWithTBI View Post
    Thanks for the input, it makes sense to me. Maybe a little more info - here's the link to my heads, FWIU they're a "fast burn" design with slant plugs. You can click on the picture and select 360* view to see the chamber design.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...make/chevrolet
    Hard to tell the chamber design from pic but generally a fast burn chamber will be in the 62-65cc range (your's 62cc), and will need much less spark than larger due to the better burn (eg-Vortec iron at 65cc). But again, everything is factor of compression ratio, quench, octane, etc. Given knocks in 2nd upper RPM, would stay at 32* or less all-in and maybe at slightly higher RPM as you mentioned. It's all trial and error without a dyno. Engine will always feel peppier with more advance at the lower RPMs. Just have to be careful at the higher.

    Will be interested in the 0% TPS knock test plus accelerating as much as possible under load in higher gear without down shifting.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Hard to tell the chamber design from pic but generally a fast burn chamber will be in the 62-65cc range (your's 62cc), and will need much less spark than larger due to the better burn (eg-Vortec iron at 65cc). But again, everything is factor of compression ratio, quench, octane, etc. Given knocks in 2nd upper RPM, would stay at 32* or less all-in and maybe at slightly higher RPM as you mentioned. It's all trial and error without a dyno. Engine will always feel peppier with more advance at the lower RPMs. Just have to be careful at the higher.

    Will be interested in the 0% TPS knock test plus accelerating as much as possible under load in higher gear without down shifting.
    I set my advance to 33* @ 3200 and changed your spreadsheet to reduce by 2* @ 3600 & 4000, then to 4* @4400 & 4800. It also dawned on me that I wasn't changing my extended table to match 4800 RPM in the Main Table then reduced spark manually there by 3* all the way to 6375RPM (I'll never get there though). I also tried some accelerations and suddenly letting off - I didn't see any additional KCs from that. I wonder if I'm throwing too much spark in 'Launch Mode" causing KCs in lower ranges and may need to pull more out on the higher, plus go back to 32* all in @3200? I'm still not convinced these are all actually knocks. Anyone have any ideas?

    Edit: I tried uploading my log (.dat) but it doesn't look like it loaded.
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    Last edited by PlayingWithTBI; 04-02-2020 at 01:27 AM. Reason: Data Log

  10. #40
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    I guess I needed to zip it
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  11. #41
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayingWithTBI View Post
    I guess I needed to zip it
    Sorry, but I use TPro so can't use a .dat file.

    My take is that 32* is pushing it. A random knock here and there is a non-issue and likely due to vibration. Only concerned generally when prolonged and under heavy load.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Sorry, but I use TPro so can't use a .dat file.

    My take is that 32* is pushing it. A random knock here and there is a non-issue and likely due to vibration. Only concerned generally when prolonged and under heavy load.
    OH, I thought you built this spreadsheet for the EBL, it has the same rows and columns, my mistake. The .dat file is from @rBob's WUD (What's Up Display). I monitor and log with it and modify the .bin with TPro and the EBL_V_40.xdf mask. I'll play with it some more and, if I have any success, I'll report back. Maybe I'll hook it up to a trailer and see what happens...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayingWithTBI View Post
    OH, I thought you built this spreadsheet for the EBL, it has the same rows and columns, my mistake. The .dat file is from @rBob's WUD (What's Up Display). I monitor and log with it and modify the .bin with TPro and the EBL_V_40.xdf mask. I'll play with it some more and, if I have any success, I'll report back. Maybe I'll hook it up to a trailer and see what happens...
    No need for trailer . Reviewed your knock reporting again. Forget the 3rd/4th gear test. Only need hard accel. Strange no knock at 100 kPa. Using your 32* table, I'd just reduce spark in increments of 0.5 degrees at 85 to 95 kPa between the RPMs reporting knocks until knocks disappear. Remember, this is trial and error but you are very close. Once you get that dialed in, might begin increasing spark at lower kPas to get more low accel pep. The spreadsheet merely provides a starting point.

  14. #44
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    Using EBL configured Excel Spreadsheet, Summary Screen Shots from WB 4-01-20 .dat file posted above.

    dave w
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    Using EBL configured Excel Spreadsheet, Summary Screen Shots from WB 4-01-20 .dat file posted above.

    dave w
    Thanks Dave!

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