first time start up!

[babywag]

Whoa! Wait a minute. In $0D Spark Advance table the Spark Bias is automatically removed from Main Spark Advance Table. So what you see is actual spark advance. If you remove the 9.8 bias you just increased Spark Advance by 9.8 degrees in the entire table!!! Go look at before and after Bias change, have to re-open Spark Advance table to see it!

Now if you have your base distributor timing set to anything other then 0? Then you have to add that amount to $0D ADX file Spark Advance Conversion to see accurate spark advance. So if you set distributor base to 10? Then adx is off by 10. and the Bias removed would make it look right, but you'd be 20 degrees to far advanced!

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again... "So where did you say your timing was set?"

Always verify timing at timing marks with a timing light!

I'm running $OE on an AMC 360 have been for a long time.
My distributor is @0*.
After initial start up the dash spark advance display would subtract 10*.
Dash did not match timing table.
History logs didn't either.
Once I set the main spark bias to 0 they matched.

I may have re-pasted my timing tables after the change don't remember it was a long time ago.
Drove me nuts for days trying to figure it out.

[EagleMark]

Strange... I did the MPFI $0D conversion and when I checked the CPI/MPFI it added the Altitude Bias on top of Main Bias, so I has 20 BIAS?

My advice still stands "So where did you say your timing was set?" Always timing light the marks and see where actual is!

There's actually way to many things to change in some of these masks...

[sgtpoliteness]

I see a couple potential issues with wiring. First is anywhere you have crimps can be a problem either now or later. If you can't solder connections use metal crimps with no plastic cover and shrink wrap.

Are those grounds on fender well anything to do with EFI? If so, no go! Have to be back to block. Even if you have ground straps from engine to frame to body to... the ground plane will be different.

Those wires from EST/ICM module? Couple possible issues, if that one big red wire to solenoid id from alternator? That is a horrible source of RFI/EMI = electrical noise!

The other issue with the wires from EST/ICM is they are way to close to or touching spark plug wires, again way to much electrical noise.

I think the MAP is OK over there, it's way less susceptible to noise and also farther from the source of electrical noise. I did not see any MAP data issues. But use the same theory for it's wires and all EFI wiring, away from coil, coil wire, spark plug wires and the charge wire from altenator.

One more issue is the EST/ICM is so very close to your regulator, it is another horrible cause of electrical noise. Looks like the EST/ICM ground may be hitting it and then run to fender well for ground where regulator is?

I think those issues with wiring from EST/ICM is your cause of Spark Timing issues, your talking about wires that transfer a 5 volt square wave signal which changes to change your timing.

Now I've also seen Duraspark modules do some weird things with timing, but never fail. Here's how to test the Duraspark module inside the distributor. You do have vacuum and mechanical advance locked out right?
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...TBI-Conversion

Now when you set the distributor base timing to 0 with bypass wire disconnected, then connect the bypass where is timing? In a stock bin file it should be about 16 degrees advance. If the two wires from Duraspark module are swapped it won't be.

Alright, let's see if I can address all of this. :)

I understand your concerns with the butt-connectors vs. solder. First, I'm not very good with solder. Second, these are actually pretty nice connectors. I've used them (as per VWAG's requirements) for more than 15 years on brand new VW's and Audi's. They don't want you soldering at all in the harnesses on the cars. The plastic part is actually a heat shrink that in-cases the wire and is, literally, weather-proof. Again, I VERY much understand your concern. Most of the wiring I did was to be fairly temporary until I got the system up to speed and then I could make look real pretty and real functional.

The big red wire to the starter solenoid is from the battery, not the alternator (sorry, bad picture!).

I will move my grounds off the fender well. I didn't even think about the various ground planes!

As for the EST being near the voltage regulator, again, a great thought. What if I move it a few more inches away? My thought with having it there was that a)it looks cleaner with all the components sorta mounted together, and b) temperature. The factory air inlet is right in front of those components and they're far away enough from the engine but not directly exposed to water coming up from below.

I'm going to make a separate post on timing.

Oh! Here's the log I took on the way home last night. I jumped the gun and added 50% to the AE vs TPS and AE vs MAP tables.

[sgtpoliteness]

So, timing is where I'm most confused (there's a lot I'm confused about, timing is probably the worst). I'm getting a lot of different advise on this too. I currently have my initial set @ 12* BTDC. This is where it's been for months and it ran pretty well set here with the Edelbrock on it. Now, if this isn't going to work with the totally awesome ESC system I'll change it. I guess I don't really understand how the PCM in the TBI system controls/determines spark. What scalars/tables do I need to change every time I adjust initial? Is there a write up somewhere I can read?

Currently, while monitoring the data dash I'm at like 20* BTDC. The Initial Spark Advance Scalar in my bin is set to 12* still because the 'Tips' with it are pretty specific to enter in your exact initial here. EagleMark, I know you wrote to put 0, how come again? Even if your initial isn't 0?

I've welded up the mechanical advance weights in the distributor. You wrote below (or above?) that if I set distributor base timing to ZERO with the bypass disconnected then reconnect it should read 16 with a stock bin? Now is it really advancing the timing 16* at an idle? If I know how/why a system works it helps be sort through it.

Something else that I tried to do yesterday. My idle is REALLY low, as you all have previously mentioned. So low (though it's actually really, really smooth at 500 rpm) that a couple times on the way home last night it stalled. There's a cone-shaped plug covering up what appears to be the adjustment screw for the throttle. Is that what it is? I tried to drill through it, but it fought back. It actually drove really well, other than the stalling, home. It's still low on power but I haven't had any pops back thru the t-body like before. What's great, is there's no more 1500 rpm choke-induced warm up, no more super rich exhaust smell and no more soot on my sidewalk from the tail pipe!

[EagleMark]

Alright, let's see if I can address all of this. :)

I understand your concerns with the butt-connectors vs. solder. First, I'm not very good with solder. Second, these are actually pretty nice connectors. I've used them (as per VWAG's requirements) for more than 15 years on brand new VW's and Audi's. They don't want you soldering at all in the harnesses on the cars. The plastic part is actually a heat shrink that in-cases the wire and is, literally, weather-proof. Again, I VERY much understand your concern. Most of the wiring I did was to be fairly temporary until I got the system up to speed and then I could make look real pretty and real functional.

The big red wire to the starter solenoid is from the battery, not the alternator (sorry, bad picture!).

I will move my grounds off the fender well. I didn't even think about the various ground planes!

As for the EST being near the voltage regulator, again, a great thought. What if I move it a few more inches away? My thought with having it there was that a)it looks cleaner with all the components sorta mounted together, and b) temperature. The factory air inlet is right in front of those components and they're far away enough from the engine but not directly exposed to water coming up from below.

I'm going to make a separate post on timing.

Oh! Here's the log I took on the way home last night. I jumped the gun and added 50% to the AE vs TPS and AE vs MAP tables.

I was looking at a little red wire to solenoid as well, that is what I thought may be from alternator.

Not many people have or even know about the good solder less connectors your describing. They should be fine. But I still don't like the male/female connection in those wires to EST. It's obvious your in the temp wiring stage, which is good now that you are aware of electrical noise. I bought an osiliscope to find these issues and now don't need it, I can spot the issues and verify with it if I need be.

The EST may be fine there so move it as last resort, the ground and signal wires near spark are more a concern. Something is wrong with spark to data. Your trying to add AE to get rid of bog/pop when accelerating and data says your timing goes to zero when accelerating or a spike first?

[EagleMark]

I've welded up the mechanical advance weights in the distributor. You wrote below (or above?) that if I set distributor base timing to ZERO with the bypass disconnected then reconnect it should read 16 with a stock bin? Now is it really advancing the timing 16* at an idle? If I know how/why a system works it helps be sort through it.

Yes! And clear Error code 42 when you do this before restart.

Something else that I tried to do yesterday. My idle is REALLY low, as you all have previously mentioned. So low (though it's actually really, really smooth at 500 rpm) that a couple times on the way home last night it stalled. There's a cone-shaped plug covering up what appears to be the adjustment screw for the throttle. Is that what it is? I tried to drill through it, but it fought back.

That is for throttle blade minimum air adjustment, not idle! Idle RPM is handled through a parameter in bin.

You still may have to remove that plug, I've seen them before and they are not like the tin plug you can poke a hole through and pop out. They must be made from criptonite or? Cause a drill won't scratch it. You have to drill into side of TB towards it and poke it out from behind. It's only about an 1/8th inch deep, don't drill to far back as you will hit the torx screw needed for adjustment. You may not need to, leave a idle on end of log to watch IAC counts and see...

There are four main idle parameters to look for like this "Idle Speed vs. Temperature (P/N, A/C Off)"

[EagleMark]

So, timing is where I'm most confused (there's a lot I'm confused about, timing is probably the worst). I'm getting a lot of different advise on this too. I currently have my initial set @ 12* BTDC. This is where it's been for months and it ran pretty well set here with the Edelbrock on it. Now, if this isn't going to work with the totally awesome ESC system I'll change it. I guess I don't really understand how the PCM in the TBI system controls/determines spark. What scalars/tables do I need to change every time I adjust initial? Is there a write up somewhere I can read?

Currently, while monitoring the data dash I'm at like 20* BTDC. The Initial Spark Advance Scalar in my bin is set to 12* still because the 'Tips' with it are pretty specific to enter in your exact initial here. EagleMark, I know you wrote to put 0, how come again? Even if your initial isn't 0?

Well something fixed your spark advance in data because that one was fine...

There's so many settings! Another reason I like to leave everything alone and work on Idle Spark or Off Idle Spark tables only. Foolproof!

Take for instance setting base distributor with bypass wire disconnected to 12 instead of 0. You added 12 degrees overall to timing. Now if you set your Base or Initial timing in bin to 12... What happens? Some say it takes 12 degrees off entire timing table so you get nothing, when I tested it, it takes off 12 from top, so you do get some idle timing and low end. But that was a long time ago and I've found I don't need to do any of this, set to 0, don't mess with Bias, just work on timing table!

Now that you added 12 Base/Initial timing, and added it to bin Base or Initial timing, and removed Bias. Where is your timing? What is it at idle? How about 2000 RPM? 3000 RPM? SO your under the hood and checking it with a timing light at crank with a dial back timing light right? What is timing at WOT when MAP is 100?

I've answered all the questions with testing and you know what I found? It's way to hard! Leave it all alone and work the 2 spark tables! Then when you test with timing light on timing marks it all comes out to accurate of your 2 spark tables.

OK, one more. You set your base timing to 12 and the Initial timing in bin to 12 and you say your Spark advance is like 20. Well your right, it is about 20 at idle in data log. But data ADX file did not know you added 12 to mechanical base setting, so the 20 you see is actually 32 degrees advance at timing marks!

There's a conversion in the spark advance value in ADX file that has a conversion.
It is set to "X * 0.351563 + 0.000000"
With 12 degrees base timing it needs to be "X * 0.351563 + 12.000000"

[babywag]

IIRC Initial timing is subtracted from timing table.
So by setting it @ 12* in the bin it knows where the distributor is.
He changed his bias to 0 from 9.8 like I suggested.
Remember before it was showing ~8* now it's ~10* higher.

Say his idle cell calls for 30* total timing 12* initial is subtracted and dashboard should show ~18* keep in mind the dynamic idle timing will make it move around a little to maintain idle.

So looking @ his log/bin it is now reporting what advance is correctly?

35MPH 22KPa 1325rpm 18.3 degrees
Timing table shows a value of 29.9* again subtract 12* initial = 17.9*
37MPH 69.8KPa 2400rpm 14.4 degrees
Timing table shows a value of 26.0* again subtract 12* initial = 14*

Now like you said he'll have to verify that is what the engine timing mark is showing, but he should be good??

EDIT: However it not matching the timing table would bug me. Would the adx edit change this so it matched?

[EagleMark]

This is why I preach leave it alone! Although your numbers add up...

Looking at Spark Advance table it is actual spark advance. The Bias is removed in conversion 0.351563 * ( X - Y ) where Y is the hex address of Bias.

Remove bias, change to 0 and re open the spark advance table and ever cell is 9.84 higher, so Bias conversion is working...

His first log showed like 8 degrees timing. WIth ADX file set to 0, he has 12 base so 8+12=20 actual at timing marks.

This log shows 20 degrees timing. Looks like removing the 9.82 Bias did add 9.84 degrees timing? With ADX file set to 0, he has 12 base so 20+12=32 actual at timing marks...

But his timing table now says 29.9 at idle area, why does ADX data show 20? Probably the 12 degrees base timing in bin? Still missing 2 degrees?

The rule has always been to add base/initial timing to ADX conversion, but it looks like it may already be subtracted because of base/initial being set in bin?

At least the glitch is gone... OK, one more time... "Where did you say your timing was set?"

[babywag]

This is why I preach leave it alone!

Looking at Spark Advance table it is actual spark advance. The Bias is removed in conversion 0.351563 * ( X - Y ) where Y is the hex address of Bias.

Remove bias, change to 0 and re open the spark advance table and ever cell is 9.84 higher, so Bias conversion is working...

His first log showed like 8 degrees timing. WIth ADX file set to 0, he has 12 base so 8+12=20 actual at timing marks.

This log shows 20 degrees timing. Looks like removing the 9.82 Bias did add 9.84 degrees timing? With ADX file set to 0, he has 12 base so 20+12=32 actual at timing marks...

But his timing table now says 29.9 at idle area, why does ADX data show 20? Probably the 12 degrees base timing in bin? Still missing 2 degrees?

At least the glitch is gone... OK, one more time... "Where did you say your timing was set?"

0* is mine(distributor & bin)
With main bias set @ 9.8 in my bin dashboard and data logs showed 9.8 lower than actual timing verified with a timing light.
That is why I set it(main spark bias) to 0 in my bin, and why I suggested he do the same.
If you look @ other bins some have a main spark bias and others do not.

I wanted to have the dash & logs report what the total timing is and match the spark table.
The PCM was working and the timing @ the marks were correct.
What TunerPro was telling me was NOT.

[EagleMark]

I wanted to have the dash & logs report what the total timing is and match the spark table.
The PCM was working and the timing @ the marks were correct.
What TunerPro was telling me was NOT.

That could be corrected in ADX conversion.

So you had to remove 9.84 Bias, remove 9.84 from entire spark advance table, to get it accurate in Data ADX?

Wish I had an $0D truck here and I'd have this done today. I've had 9.84 degrees vanish before and I really hate when that happens!

[babywag]

That could be corrected in ADX conversion.

So you had to remove 9.84 Bias, remove 9.84 from entire spark advance table, to get it accurate in Data ADX?

Wish I had an $0D truck here and I'd have this done today. I've had 9.84 degrees vanish before and I really hate when that happens!

Bin 0*, adx 0*, distributor 0* what would you change in adx to make it report accurately?
Anyway end hijack probably confusing Jason even more.

I was just sharing what worked for me.

[EagleMark]

Well I'm sure he gets the point of verifying timing at marks with a timing light!

[sgtpoliteness]

Well I'm sure he gets the point of verifying timing at marks with a timing light!

Yup! Now, I know I need to find out what what it is @ different RPM, but will it matter that it's not being driven? Am I able to fool the MAP somewhat?

Right now, @ idle with the bypass disconnected I'm reading 12* BTDC. I haven't yet checked at higher RPM. I've removed the 'Spark Bias' and set it to 0 as Babywag suggested. I've also changed my definition file Value for Initial Timing to 0*. Initial Spark in the Bin is still set to 12*. However, when warm, at idle Tuner PRo is reading 25-30 degrees.

At 1600-1700 rpm, MAP of 40 I'm getting an advance of 30-32. This seems correct, as it relates to a carb and vacuum advance dizzy (12 initial and around 20 for part throttle ported vacuum and mechanical), correct?

It doesn't seem like timing is varying much at all. I'm going to confirmed some readings later with the timing gun (with advance knob). I've also got my updated VE tables loaded up into a new file I'm going to flash soon.

At this point I'm probably going to set everything to 0*, including the distributor and see what happens.

My Coolant Spark Bias is still set to the factory 20*
My Altitude Spark Bias is @ 9.8*, also untouched

I'm at right about 5500 feet at my house. Could the ECU be adding park based upon Altitude?

[sgtpoliteness]

Ok! I re-flashed to 0* initial bin, 0* definition and 0* bias. Also, I've reset the dizzy to 0*. I redid my idle speed to bring up the idle a touch. That helped my stalling. Re-setting the dizzy actually made more consistent power, but it's still a pig on the bottom end. I'm going to go out and take a good log this evening. I imagine my fuel is probably pretty close (after changing the VE tables) and the timing will need a lot of help.

Here's my new BIN!

One weird issue. I'm still reading a lot of timing thru Tuner Pro @ idle. 25* or so, even when I'm reading 0* with the timing gun. Is it possible I've got the P and N terminals switched? I believe I've got the correct colors to them from the distributor.

Interestingly, according to my Main Spark Table @ Idle my timing is where it should be. It's calling for 29.9 (that's what's in the 600 rpm, 20-40 MAP cells) and I'm @ around that @ idle. Even more interesting is how the timing table follows the manifold vacuum advance theory as opposed to the ported vacuum. Less timing under high load, high rpm - more timing under low load, high rpm. Because there's that ported vs. manifold vacuum debate. This timing table would almost confirm the 'manifold vacuum is ideal' argument. But, alas, that is another post for another day.