Adding spark and a forced knock test

**EagleMark** · 06-28-2012

I've been helping CDeez and he cornered me into helping him add spark, something I normally don't like to do if I'm not there! So I'm posting this as a thread for all to learn and share.

WARNING! These examples are for $42 1227747 Small Block Chevy and may not be correct for other masks, on a good running vehicle with fuel in order and no mechanical issues. If you do this wrong you can crack or melt a piston! To further explain how differant masks are, even $42 1227747 Big Block Warm Spark Bias is differant by 9.84 degrees then a Small Block!!! You have to start with your bin and mask and understand spark bias settings are all differant!

First thing you need to do is check knock sensor circuit is working. The way I check knock sensor and force knock is to add 6-8 degrees to an area like in picture, this way it's easy to hit while listening and recording data, and easy to drive and avoid this area if you get the knock counts your looking for. There's also some paremeters open so you can data log spark advance in your ADX by doing the hack in bin. Distributor needs to be set to 0 or adjustment in calculation in Spark Advance in ADX is in order.

Now you've learned to use the data tracing right? Playing back your log while data tracing and bubble gets in those cells, pause and look for knock counts, you can use shift + [ or ] to move one frame at a time. Watch in list veiw or set up a dash board to watch spark advance and knock counts. Do not use the TPS % hack when doing this. If you find knock good, if you hear knock and don't see any logged bad!!! Go back to stock spark and fix knock sensor.

To start adding spark I add 1 degree in this area:

Then I add 1 degree to this area, notice you added 2 degrees to higher RPM and load:

Burn a chip and data log! Find it runs better? Any knock counts?

**CDeeZ** · 06-28-2012

This one is going to take some time for me to study and fully comprehend, but I think I might understand your procedure.

In a nutshell, and correct me if I'm wrong here:

First you added the 6 or so degrees in the high load/low RPM area in the spark table to see if you could purposely cause a knock signal thereby verifying that the knock sensor works.

Then you added 2 degrees to the higher rpm and load area, and 1 degree to alot of the surrounding cells..

Then it's time to burn chip, see how it runs and watch for knock counts...

Is the secret to conservatively add a little bit of spark advance at a time and creep up on it until you're happy with it?

Questions:

Could you test the knock sensor by rapping on the engine block with the key on and scan tool attached???

How come you stayed away from adding spark to the areas in the table that you did? Any reason?

**dave w** · 06-28-2012

Some members know I favor Excel to tune with. My Excel method is show below in a few screen shots. As far as I know, the '7747 does not have Spark Advance in the data stream, like the screen shots shown. The method is the same, find where knock counts occur / increase in number knock counts and look at the Kpa / RPM. Make adjustments to the timing table as needed.

dave w

**EagleMark** · 06-28-2012

Cdeez, yes to your questions. Conservitive, when you do find some knock counts occuring back out 2 degrees and make sure they go away, there's a fine line before knock that will casue no more power, actually a loss of power and great stress/heat in head and piston, piston is only cooled by oil so without data from oil temps you want to stay away from MAX advance.

Could you test the knock sensor by rapping on the engine block with the key on and scan tool attached???

Yes that is a good start! But now is it working properly for ping and piston knock?

How come you stayed away from adding spark to the areas in the table that you did? Any reason?

Idle is a seperate tuning procedure so that's one area. The other area is decel, factory has that pretty maxed out for emmissions and more spark there does not help a thing.

Remember the numbers you see in spark advance table are very rarely actual spark advance at timing marks. Look at all the spark bias settings? This is why I had the warning above, those numbers will not work in a $42 7747 Big Block because Warm Spark Bias is completely differant! So are all other masks!

Dave W, you are correct, no spark advance in 1227747 Data Stream, but with help from Gregs78Cam and learning me how to hack there is a Spark Advance hack available in the XDF and data value in ADX, so yes we have actual spark advance in data stream now.

I hope some more experianced smart tuners jump in here and give some more input! This is something that I approach very carefully in person and have avoided giving any info in public because of so many factors...

Now has everyone read my 2 BOLD warnings in this thread and understand them?

**CDeeZ** · 06-29-2012

Originally Posted by dave w

Some members know I favor Excel to tune with. My Excel method is show below in a few screen shots. As far as I know, the '7747 does not have Spark Advance in the data stream, like the screen shots shown. The method is the same, find where knock counts occur / increase in number knock counts and look at the Kpa / RPM. Make adjustments to the timing table as needed.

dave w

I noticed some cells had more knock counts recorded than others in the three .xls images you posted, anything to that? Are cells with few knock counts still adjusted like those cells with more??

Originally Posted by EagleMark

Cdeez, yes to your questions. Conservitive, when you do find some knock counts occuring back out 2 degrees and make sure they go away, there's a fine line before knock that will casue no more power, actually a loss of power and great stress/heat in head and piston, piston is only cooled by oil so without data from oil temps you want to stay away from MAX advance.

Yes that is a good start! But now is it working properly for ping and piston knock?

Idle is a seperate tuning procedure so that's one area. The other area is decel, factory has that pretty maxed out for emmissions and more spark there does not help a thing.

Remember the numbers you see in spark advance table are very rarely actual spark advance at timing marks. Look at all the spark bias settings? This is why I had the warning above, those numbers will not work in a $42 7747 Big Block because Warm Spark Bias is completely differant! So are all other masks!

Dave W, you are correct, no spark advance in 1227747 Data Stream, but with help from Gregs78Cam and learning me how to hack there is a Spark Advance hack available in the XDF and data value in ADX, so yes we have actual spark advance in data stream now.

I hope some more experianced smart tuners jump in here and give some more input! This is something that I approach very carefully in person and have avoided giving any info in public because of so many factors...

Now has everyone read my 2 BOLD warnings in this thread and understand them?

Ok. So far all I've done to my timing table is copy the timing table from the 1990-v5.bin you posted in the other thread. Since the two spark tables were identical, other than yours being smoothed, I figured this would be a safe place to start?

Ah I see your point, rapping on the engine block still won't verify that the knock sensor detects knock caused from pinging.

Spark advance in datastream? You guys lost me there...

Disclaimers read and understood.

It seems easy enough, add spark in conservative amounts, checking for knock signals and backing off timing where necessary, and don't assume the timing table for your buddy's L03 Camaro will work for the binary in your 454 1 ton and so on.

**EagleMark** · 06-29-2012

If you look in you ADX you will see spark advance, but it will not work because it is not in the data stream. Now look at your XDF and under scalers, Hacks, or catagory Hacks. Open the "Spark Advance **Read Me Hack**" and learn to use paremeter comments to read what is there about it.

To datalog Spark Advance to data stream change 00BA to 0067. You must also use associated ADX file to veiw Spark Advance: $42-1227747-V4.adx
Thanks to gregs78cam at GearHead-EFI.com
This hac takes place of O2 cross counts in data stream!
Thanks to RBob:
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tb...ing-issue.html

I try to keep this stuff documented and give credit to those who have helped.

**dave w** · 06-29-2012

Originally Posted by CDeeZ

I noticed some cells had more knock counts recorded than others in the three .xls images you posted, anything to that? Are cells with few knock counts still adjusted like those cells with more??

The screen shots show where knock occurred because the knocks increased. A mild knock will increase the knock count up a few counts. A severe knock will increase knock counts by the dozens to several hundred in a very narrow amount of time!

I adjust the severe knock areas first.

dave w

**EagleMark** · 06-29-2012

Articles on Knock.

http://autospeed.com/A_110829/cms/article.html

http://autospeed.com/A_110830/cms/article.html

http://autospeed.com/A_110831/cms/article.html

Now all we need is an affordable piezoelectric transducers spark plugs or Band Pass Filter attached to plugs!

http://www.optrand.com/products.htm#calplug

**CDeeZ** · 06-30-2012

Working my way through reading those articles

**EagleMark** · 07-01-2012

There's a lot there. I've read them and seems to be spot on to the few books I've read from Greg Banish.

Also looking at a group buy for the Pressure Sensor spark plugs that will read on Osiliscope!

We could share them and come up with some baseline spark advance tables... maybe a Chairmans Circle private club?

**EagleMark** · 07-01-2012

May as well add this link we had from long ago.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...d-Pre-Ignition

**EagleMark** · 07-03-2012

I got information back from Optrand on their pressure senosr spark plug, "The sensor has an analog output 0.5-4.5V which is proportional to pressure." That would be very easy to tie into an AutoProm or extra AD ECM line and add to TunerPro software!

But the cost is probably more then anyone other then OEM engineers or a dyno shop could afford at $1200. ish per one plug! Talk about the ultimate tuning tool though...

**CDeeZ** · 07-05-2012

Mark, still digesting the information you've shared on knock/pre-ignition.

What exactly are those spark plugs that you posted a few posts back??

**EagleMark** · 07-05-2012

They produce sprk like a regular plug but also measure pressure to find MBT for maximum spark advance and will also show preignition/knock way before it happens.