Longtime admirer of MPI finds new interest in TBI

[justbrosing]

I'll admit TBI wasn't my first choice, but the donor fell in my lap and ran without much effort. I drove the new to me 94 Suburban down the road with a new fuel pump, in a washer fluid bottle tied up under the body. The tank fared poorly in it's ten year hiatus from active service, which is a shame, because I had every intention of mounting it under the project vehicle, which came as a result of my inability to keep my mouth shut.

I bought my 62 C10 long bed step side at an Independence Day barbecue for $300 last year. I didn't really need it, didn't really have much space to park it, and didn't really need to empty my pocket that day, but I asked about it. It had a cast iron Powerglide but the engine was missing. Looked like they had pulled it for whatever reason and just never got back to it. The truck still had tools in the toolbox and misc stuff in the glove compartment. Seems like it sat since 1994 according to the inspection sticker. I brought it home, went through the bonded title process, and kept an eye out for a donor.

It wasn't too long before a seemingly ideal donor came along. I have many memories, some not so fond, of helping my father swap BOP engines into Chevrolet/GMC trucks. It was popular at the time to pick up a discarded land yacht for peanuts to repower your pickup. Scrapping the car usually paid for the engine. For another $300, I picked up an Olds 98 I knew had been swapped to a 425/700r4. With little effort, it runs and drives pretty well. Before I could get the engine out, I was hit with a terrible realization that should I crater that 700r4, it would cost more than the entire project to have it rebuilt. BOP and dual bolt pattern 700s aren't just sitting all over like they once did. I want to use the truck for it's intended purpose, as you might have noticed by now I have a habit of dragging up junk, so that one is pretty much out. I went back and forth but never unbolted anything, then my neighbor gave me another truck.

I expressed interest in the hood because it would fit mine. A few months later, he gave me the whole truck. Well, it was more like half of it. I think someone used the bed and back third of the frame to make a trailer. So it was the better majority of a 61 Apache, and it had a 283/SM420. Looking inside, the 420 was in excellent shape, but I didn't know how bad the engine was until I'd already harvested all the manual parts to do the swap. So I was looking for another small block Chevrolet, but at the same time, I wasn't excited about cutting the mid mount cross member out of the donor frame. It was of course welded in and made for a lot of difficulty pulling the engine and transmission as an assembly. The idea was to weld flanges onto it and make it removable, but I never got that far.

I guess I was holding out for something fuel injected with an automatic. Part of me wants it to be four wheel drive so I have a K20 long bed frame set aside, but I'm also pretty cheap. For $200 the Suburban will suffice, and should I encounter a K model automatic in the future, things might change. For now, I'll be satisfied with the original chassis and 2WD.

So now I'm here to learn. I have a 5.7/4L60E to pull and an ECM harness to simplify. I found the JTR speedometer adapter to use the original speedometer with the VSS, and I'd like to keep the cruise system. I intend to mate the late model AC system to a 1950s under dash unit, and locate the ECM behind the cluster. I'm keeping the original Powerglide column, and plan on welding up the old shift quadrant, then milling the appropriate detents for the 4L60E. That said, it won't have the Saginaw column to carry the cruise switches, but I think with a wiring diagram, I may be able to make it work via remote. Other than power brakes and steering, the focus will be on functionality, reliability, and economy, while trying to maintain as much original equipment as possible. At least an original appearance on the surface, if I can manage it.

So that's my introduction. I figure an intro post like "Hi, I'm Bill from Indiana" doesn't really tell much, and we're here to talk tech, so with any hope, I'd like to come out of this with a sub $1k antique daily driver.

With the resources I see here, the only thing holding me back is me. Thanks for reading, and I'll look forward to posting with y'all in the future. Until then, I'm just browsing.

[dave w]

Many gearhead-efi members started out with a TBI system, and will share their information when asked.

dave w

[Fast355]

Many gearhead-efi members started out with a TBI system, and will share their information when asked.

dave w

Thats where I started after ditching the CCC Q-Jet on my 83 G20 van. Full TBI swap out of a 92 Van. It was nearly a bolt in swap. I first elongated the factory TBI manifold bolts and put the 350 TBI system on the rv cammed 305. Swapped the fuel tank and fuel lines, trimmed the TBI harness from the 92 down to a stand alone by removing a few wires and connected it right up. A couple of years later it had a healthy 350 TBI Vortec and a 4L60E in it, soon followed by a TPI.

[1project2many]

Welcome to the forum.

Well... it sounds like you should keep waiting to start your engine swap. You could end up with several more trucks to pick parts from. :)

Hmm... "BOP and dual bolt pattern 700s aren't just sitting all over like they once did." I have an illustration of a dual pattern 700R4 in a GM / Hydramatic training manual. I once sent it to a former Hydramatic plant manager. He replied that neither Chevrolet nor Hydramatic ever manufactured such a unit although he thought the drawing interesting. So I ask: Are you certain you have a 700R4? The 2004R, with much better first gear ratio imo, is a dual pattern transmission. They are also, again imo, a more reliable transmission.

Also, is the '62 4X4 drivetrain equipped with a divorced transfer case? That might be neat to connect to a 2WD 4L60E. You may find the 62 front differential is on the LH side of the truck while the later K truck, which you have yet to obtain, differential is on the RH side.

The build plan seems realistic. I went ahead and mounted the ecm in my '57 above the park brake. I could have picked a better spot and I wonder if moving the pcm behind the seat would be better. You can mount it on the back wall away from feet.

[justbrosing]

Many gearhead-efi members started out with a TBI system, and will share their information when asked.

dave w

I had a carbureted 2.8 V6 in an XJ Cherokee which is now 91-95 from the dash forward and looks like it came from the factory with a 4.0/AW4. Been driving that for four years now, but the only place I had to splice anything was in the kick panel where the modern dash harness met the original body harness. I think it still counts as a swap, even f it looks original.

Welcome to the forum.

Well... it sounds like you should keep waiting to start your engine swap. You could end up with several more trucks to pick parts from. :)

Hmm... "BOP and dual bolt pattern 700s aren't just sitting all over like they once did." I have an illustration of a dual pattern 700R4 in a GM / Hydramatic training manual. I once sent it to a former Hydramatic plant manager. He replied that neither Chevrolet nor Hydramatic ever manufactured such a unit although he thought the drawing interesting. So I ask: Are you certain you have a 700R4? The 2004R, with much better first gear ratio imo, is a dual pattern transmission. They are also, again imo, a more reliable transmission.

Also, is the '62 4X4 drivetrain equipped with a divorced transfer case? That might be neat to connect to a 2WD 4L60E. You may find the 62 front differential is on the LH side of the truck while the later K truck, which you have yet to obtain, differential is on the RH side.

The build plan seems realistic. I went ahead and mounted the ecm in my '57 above the park brake. I could have picked a better spot and I wonder if moving the pcm behind the seat would be better. You can mount it on the back wall away from feet.

I have what I was told is a 700R4 but I have not been under the car to verify. Obviously Olds didn't use engines from 1965 in 1978 either so I have no idea where it came from . Far as oddball Hydramatics go, I have an AMC bolt pattern TH400 in a J10.

The 62 is a C10. The later K20 is a 79 with the unfortunate NP203. However, the frame would swap without too much effort and I would not only have leaf springs front and rear, but also disc brakes. The later Chevrolet is driver side drop without any of that divorced nonsense. In the meantime, I'm looking at a trailing arm setup with three sets of coil springs because apparently one set was not enough. It has a set of helper coils installed and coilover shocks. The frame swap is more of a pipe dream because as a four wheel drive enthusiast, 127" wheelbase is way too long for anything practical or fun.

I actually have three K models at present, two of them are pretty straight. I also have a 57 Bel Air wagon to start on after this and well, lots of other projects beyond that.

I did a column swap in a 66 GMC years ago and retained the original parking brake location with a tilt Saginaw column. The inside of the dash seems very spacious until you start adding AC components, but I think the drivers side is going to be cavernous enough to hold what I need. About the only thing I think most people will disagree with is my desire to utilize an in tank pump behind the seat. If I had a fleetside bed, it would be a non issue to have a frame mounted tank and put the filler behind the tail light, but I'm not adding a filler anywhere else, especially not in the center of the bed floor which seems extremely popular. I was considering using the Suburban tank with ten miles of fill tubing from the cab, but it was full of rust and probably wouldn't have filled consistently at the pump. An inline pump may also work, but I won't know until I look closer inside the tank. If the outlet is at the bottom, an inline pump seems more practical, but I'll still need a return line.

[mihela]

Its not hard to put a Chevy bolt pattern trans behind a Caddy if it ever came to that. The 4L80E is then a good option.

[justbrosing]

Its not hard to put a Chevy bolt pattern trans behind a Caddy if it ever came to that. The 4L80E is then a good option.

I'd follow a link to how I can mate my forlorn but not forgotten SM420 to the big block Oldsmobile. Seems like an interesting concept. Otherwise, I haven't seen a manual transmission in an Oldsmobile what was not an 80s economy car. Big block flywheel may be tricky to source.

I do have an untested 4L80E in a 2001 G30. I'll admit, GM electronic transmissions are going to be fairly new ground to me, but I'm open to learn what I can.

[1project2many]

About the only thing I think most people will disagree with is my desire to utilize an in tank pump behind the seat.

I have done this in my '57. Return type EFI systems warm the fuel as the engine runs. Vapors are formed as fuel in the tank warms. The in-cab tank is not designed to handle a large amount of vapor. End result is pressure developing inside the tank and forcing fuel and vapor out. I have installed a fuel cooler in the return line, reduced the pressure on the tank vent valve in the cap and fabricated neoprene gaskets for the sending unit plate. It still smells like fuel in the cab shortly after a fill-up or on a long drive. My next step would be adding a connection for a canister purge system.

[justbrosing]

I have done this in my '57. Return type EFI systems warm the fuel as the engine runs. Vapors are formed as fuel in the tank warms. The in-cab tank is not designed to handle a large amount of vapor. End result is pressure developing inside the tank and forcing fuel and vapor out. I have installed a fuel cooler in the return line, reduced the pressure on the tank vent valve in the cap and fabricated neoprene gaskets for the sending unit plate. It still smells like fuel in the cab shortly after a fill-up or on a long drive. My next step would be adding a connection for a canister purge system.

I was wondering if I'd be utilizing that purge valve on the intake and briefly considered a canister myself. I hadn't thought much about heat accumulation, but I guess returning via regulator is somewhat similar to hydraulic fluid and relief valves. It is an excellent point to consider and I appreciate your bringing it up.

The thought occurred to me that I could perhaps tee the return into the supply line on a frame mounted inline pump for less modification to the tank itself, but I'm not sure if that may induce cavitation and thus poor performance, even premature pump failure.

A baffled chamber between the pump and tank comes to mind as a return location as well. Fortunately, I have access to a full service machine shop and can make neat stuff like that, even if it doesn't work in application.

[1project2many]

The thought occurred to me that I could perhaps tee the return into the supply line on a frame mounted inline pump for less modification to the tank itself, but I'm not sure if that may induce cavitation and thus poor performance, even premature pump failure.

You might be right although Ford did use a similar system on '90s F trucks. But I think a reservoir with a way to vent vapors would be better due to the heating. Mercruiser systems from the 90s used the mechanical pump on the block to fill a remote reservoir with an electric pump. The remote reservoir level was controlled by a pump with a vent line for vapor. I used one of these systems in a '67 Chevelle years ago with some success. I'm told those systems suffered from overheating in some applications which may explain the fuel cooler installed by Mercruiser in later years. Considering the in-cab tank will also need additional baffling to prevent starvation at lower fuel level, you may want to think about designing a system similar to the Mercruiser system. Come to think of it, someone may have provided links to a pre-made reservoir for a hot rod EFI swap. Yep... Here's a spendy one from Edelbrock: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-36031

A baffled chamber between the pump and tank comes to mind as a return location as well. Fortunately, I have access to a full service machine shop and can make neat stuff like that, even if it doesn't work in application.

Here's a cheap Mercruiser reservoir that could benefit from some love: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-...4AAOSwvJ9fkYrN