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Thread: Knock sensor and related parts

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Maybe a stupid question, but you are Speed Density, and not trying to run MAF with S_AUJP, right?

    Need to post your .BIN and either a TunerPro .xdl log file or an exported .csv log file showing the issues you describe.
    @84Elky Can you take a look at Docs .csv log file of the one he says runs the best post #5..."Im not a smart man.." but it seems like it may be a open loop bin. Last time I did anything with '7730 was back in '05...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stew86MCSS396 View Post
    @84Elky Can you take a look at Docs .csv log file of the one he says runs the best post #5..."Im not a smart man.." but it seems like it may be a open loop bin. Last time I did anything with '7730 was back in '05...
    The logs you reference do indicate OL, but the underlying issue is we don't know the source of the data being provided, if OL was intended (unlikely without using S_AUJP), etc. That's why I ignored them.

    This appears to be a classic case of a "tune" being provided and it being used without any idea of what it contains. I've seen situations where inconsequential changes were made to a factory calibration and it was called a custom tune (fan on/off temps, TCC lock MPH, etc.). Happens all the time. Once the extracted bin file is available, progress can be made. Bottom line, it's impossible to radically modify a computer controlled engine and expect it to properly run without personally changing the parameters necessary for the desired performance.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Doc ---
    My sincere apologies. You need the HDR1 ($10) to extract the bin from a 7730 MEMCAL, and not the HDR6. Don't know what I was thinking. That's why the extracted bin is garbage. HDR6 is for 128K.
    I talked to Moates and they will exchange it if you sent them an email and then they will provide instructions. For expediency, you might consider an out right purchase and then a return for credit. But do send an email or call at 225-341-3547. You might also talk to them about the proper procedure using your burner. I don't know because I use their autoprom and TunerPro. Again, apologies!

    HDR1 instructions here: http://www.moates.net/documentation....entation_id=12.
    OK, before I go and get this all sorted out with SAUJP - this is the .BIN file I pulled using the HDR1.

    Does this look more like it should?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  4. #19
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    It looks as it should. Didn't spend much time looking through it. It does have 29# injectors whereas stock 350 is 22#? If you use TunerPro's compare tool it appears AUJP is the starting bin as delta compare returns a lot of zeroes in the timing tables. Doesn't look like individual cells in the VE tables were tuned as it appears some areas tuner just dumped a +10 across the board. Sorry if didn't provide any more assistance. Happy tuning!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by doc_rock View Post
    OK, before I go and get this all sorted out with SAUJP - this is the .BIN file I pulled using the HDR1.

    Does this look more like it should?
    Yes, it's now reasonable, relatively reasonable. There are so many differences from a stock TPI that it's going to take a while to sort out. No reason for many of these changes, like spark latency; but that's what happens with a "custom tune". For example, you said in Post #1 that your base timing was 10 deg. The BIN is 6 deg. That's a problem right there. Don't change your distributor setting if in fact you are really at 10 deg at operating temp with bypass line disconnected. We'll just change the final calibration to 10 deg.

    Let me look at it for a while and I'll be back with some recommendations.

    Also, injector flow rate is set to 30#. What # injectors are you using?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Also, injector flow rate is set to 30#. What # injectors are you using?
    That may be a place to start.

    Who knows where these injectors came from. Orange tops, "Python" stamped in the plastic, and no other markings anywhere on the injector that I can find.

    Searching for a python 30lb injector brings up a bunch of orange ones - so maybe that's what they were, but I can't find anything about quality of them. Scares me to death all I see referenced for them is Damford.
    Last edited by doc_rock; 06-16-2020 at 01:38 AM.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by doc_rock View Post
    That may be a place to start.

    Who knows where these injectors came from. Orange tops, "Python" stamped in the plastic, and no other markings anywhere on the injector that I can find.

    Searching for a python 30lb injector brings up a bunch of orange ones - so maybe that's what they were, but I can't find anything about quality of them. Scares me to death all I see referenced for them is Damford.
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's imperative you know details about the injectors, (and other things). A correct injector flow rate must be entered in the calibration because it affects fueling (VE table). And voltage offsets may also be important.

    The attached file contains your custom chip calibration in a S_AUJP bin + ADX and XDF. I ran the bin as is in my car and all OK despite needing significant tuning. The only things I changed for you were (see TPro log file):
    - Cylinder Volume from 713cc to 727cc (.030 over)
    - Base Distributor Advance from 6 deg to 10 deg per your belief that is where distributor is set.
    So if this bin does not run somewhat decently, there are other mechanical/electrical issues.

    My recommendations:
    - Make sure your IAC/TPS are properly set (Google for TPI instructions). Recommend 0.6v at 0% TPS
    - Ensure your dist is set at 10 deg with bypass disconnected or change bin accordingly
    - Increase idle spark from 20 to 21 or 22 deg and use those values from 400-800 RPM all kPas. Then at 1000 RPM, same value for 40-60 kPa. That makes spark always the same for idle. Smooth around 1000 area and transitions to off-idle.
    -Despite AL heads, ensure you need that much spark above idle.
    - User TPro difference tool and compare your new bin with the uncalibrated released S_AUJP bin. Pull into your bin any things that seem strange they were changed in your custom tune. Like:
    ---Switch 18 (0x018) - Bit 1 - Reset INT to 128 when in AE (Y/N)
    ---Spark Latency Correction (Should only be changed by someone on a dyno. Maybe the tuner copied that from some other tune. Should rarely be changed.)
    ---SPARK ADV, Temp. Correction .vs. Load .vs. Coolant Temp. Current settings providing too much spark below 133 deg. All entries should be 20.04 to match the coolant bias Scalar to yield 0 deg change
    ---PE Spark Adv. Is this really needed with all you now have?
    ---etc . . . . .

    Bottom line, aside from spark and VE tables and a few Flags, can't assume use of anything different than the uncalibrated S_AUJP without a good reason.

    And again, don't hot-rod it until tuned. See prior post with recommended procedure.

    HTH, Elky
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's imperative you know details about the injectors, (and other things). A correct injector flow rate must be entered in the calibration because it affects fueling (VE table). And voltage offsets may also be important.

    The attached file contains your custom chip calibration in a S_AUJP bin + ADX and XDF. I ran the bin as is in my car and all OK despite needing significant tuning. The only things I changed for you were (see TPro log file):
    - Cylinder Volume from 713cc to 727cc (.030 over)
    - Base Distributor Advance from 6 deg to 10 deg per your belief that is where distributor is set.
    So if this bin does not run somewhat decently, there are other mechanical/electrical issues.

    My recommendations:
    - Make sure your IAC/TPS are properly set (Google for TPI instructions). Recommend 0.6v at 0% TPS
    - Ensure your dist is set at 10 deg with bypass disconnected or change bin accordingly
    - Increase idle spark from 20 to 21 or 22 deg and use those values from 400-800 RPM all kPas. Then at 1000 RPM, same value for 40-60 kPa. That makes spark always the same for idle. Smooth around 1000 area and transitions to off-idle.
    -Despite AL heads, ensure you need that much spark above idle.
    - User TPro difference tool and compare your new bin with the uncalibrated released S_AUJP bin. Pull into your bin any things that seem strange they were changed in your custom tune. Like:
    ---Switch 18 (0x018) - Bit 1 - Reset INT to 128 when in AE (Y/N)
    ---Spark Latency Correction (Should only be changed by someone on a dyno. Maybe the tuner copied that from some other tune. Should rarely be changed.)
    ---SPARK ADV, Temp. Correction .vs. Load .vs. Coolant Temp. Current settings providing too much spark below 133 deg. All entries should be 20.04 to match the coolant bias Scalar to yield 0 deg change
    ---PE Spark Adv. Is this really needed with all you now have?
    ---etc . . . . .

    Bottom line, aside from spark and VE tables and a few Flags, can't assume use of anything different than the uncalibrated S_AUJP without a good reason.

    And again, don't hot-rod it until tuned. See prior post with recommended procedure.

    HTH, Elky
    Thanks, Elky. Sorry took so long, have family issues going on in Central FL needing tending to.
    I do have a mechanical background, but it's old. Updraft carbs and magnetos, manual injection diesels and solid roller camshafts type of old. So essentially from heads down I understand it. Everything with a wire to it, in this context may as well be 100% new to me, so not going to offend me asking anything. I appreciate the help and if I get to the point where I've worn out my welcome - perhaps I'll have enough knowledge to not drown.

    Loaded the BIN on a chip, and it runs fine - very similar to the old .BIN file from a sound/drive feel. It takes more spins to start it now, (that's something I've been paying attention to, and will troubleshoot later, but each .BIN I've loaded has had different characteristics when it fires up the car - I thought it fired up the car based on the cold start info on the original MEMCAL)

    Done - Make sure your IAC/TPS are properly set (Google for TPI instructions). Recommend 0.6v at 0% TPS
    Done - Ensure your dist is set at 10 deg with bypass disconnected or change bin accordingly
    Don't know how - yet. - Increase idle spark from 20 to 21 or 22 deg and use those values from 400-800 RPM all kPas. Then at 1000 RPM, same value for 40-60 kPa. That makes spark always the same for idle. Smooth around 1000 area and transitions to off-idle.
    Not sure I understand this. Is this in reference the above sentence?-Despite AL heads, ensure you need that much spark above idle.


    - User TPro difference tool and compare your new bin with the uncalibrated released S_AUJP bin. Pull into your bin any things that seem strange they were changed in your custom tune. Like:
    What does this do?---Switch 18 (0x018) - Bit 1 - Reset INT to 128 when in AE (Y/N)
    What should this be?---Spark Latency Correction (Should only be changed by someone on a dyno. Maybe the tuner copied that from some other tune. Should rarely be changed.)
    Does this indicate a need for a lower thermostat, or incompetence in original coding of the .BIN?---SPARK ADV, Temp. Correction .vs. Load .vs. Coolant Temp. Current settings providing too much spark below 133 deg. All entries should be 20.04 to match the coolant bias Scalar to yield 0 deg change
    I am unsure. What modifications would necessitate a PE Spark advance? Is this primarily for pressurized applications? ---PE Spark Adv. Is this really needed with all you now have?
    ---etc . . . . .
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by doc_rock; 06-24-2020 at 06:51 PM. Reason: added log file
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by doc_rock View Post
    I do have a mechanical background, but it's old. Updraft carbs and magnetos, manual injection diesels and solid roller camshafts type of old. So essentially from heads down I understand it. Everything with a wire to it, in this context may as well be 100% new to me, so not going to offend me asking anything.
    Understand. Similar background, but understanding how to tune is absolutely essential with other than a stock engine. Might go here and browse:
    https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...uide-book.html


    Done - Make sure your IAC/TPS are properly set (Google for TPI instructions). Recommend 0.6v at 0% TPS
    Just FYI, your log indicates 0% TPS = 0.69v initially. But then later at 0%, voltage is either 0.69v or 0.71v. This should not occur. Possibly loose connection or not firmly affixed to throttle body. Know that anything >= 0.78v is considered to be a "NOT idle state" and will cause problems with how the code deals with things.


    Don't know how - yet. - Increase idle spark from 20 to 21 or 22 deg and use those values from 400-800 RPM all kPas. Then at 1000 RPM, same value for 40-60 kPa. That makes spark always the same for idle. Smooth around 1000 area and transitions to off-idle.
    Not sure I understand this. Is this in reference the above sentence?-Despite AL heads, ensure you need that much spark above idle.
    Something like this with your spark values. Don't worry about the spark ramp from 800 to 1000 RPM:
    Spark Table.GIF


    - User TPro difference tool and compare your new bin with the uncalibrated released S_AUJP bin. Pull into your bin any things that seem strange they were changed in your custom tune. Like: What does this do? Switch 18 (0x018) - Bit 1 - Reset INT to 128 when in AE (Y/N)
    Disallows INT to be adjusted with the addition of fuel when in Acceleration Enrichment (AE). GM Factory and best setting.


    What should this be?---Spark Latency Correction (Should only be changed by someone on a dyno. Maybe the tuner copied that from some other tune. Should rarely be changed.)
    Use Factory values from the bin I sent: S_AUJP v6-28 ++AS RELEASED-NOT CALIBRATED++.BIN. Pull into your bin using TPro difference tool.


    Does this indicate a need for a lower thermostat, or incompetence in original coding of the .BIN?---SPARK ADV, Temp. Correction .vs. Load .vs. Coolant Temp. Current settings providing too much spark below 133 deg. All entries should be 20.04 to match the coolant bias Scalar to yield 0 deg change. I am unsure.
    Not related to thermostat. It's a method GM used to add/subtract spark at given temperatures and kPas. Set all values =20.04 in the 2 items below and there will be no effect on spark. The difference between the Table and the Scalar is added/subtracted to commanded spark advance.
    ---Scalar: SPARK ADV, Coolant Based Bias
    ---Table: SPARK ADV, Temp. Correction .vs. Load .vs. Coolant Temp.


    What modifications would necessitate a PE Spark advance? Is this primarily for pressurized applications? PE Spark Adv. Is this really needed with all you now have?
    GM used this increase spark while in Power Enrichment, likely because their fueling settings were pig rich and the extra advance was needed. Generally best to not use it and set all values =0. Properly configured, the main spark tables will provide the required advance.


    A few other observations:
    ---Log indicates o2 sensor not connected. All data ~=450mv. Thus never in closed loop (CL), except at log sample 1912 when an errant reported mv=186 occurs outside 199mv and 699mv range (must be outside range for sensor to be declared active). Must have proper NBo2 voltage to ECM for CL, or will have to tune with WBo2 AFR or lambda because INT and BLM will always =128. Must correct this before proceeding with tuning (See attached Excel file).
    ---Was the car always in gear when idling? If not, trans wiring not correct because never show being in P/N. It is automatic, right?
    ---Regarding injectors. They appear to be 30# from log. But FYI, your engine likely only needs 24#. Leave the Flow rate constant at 30#/hr, but the VE tables will likely required major adjustment once you can log with the o2 sensor connected .

    When you post another log after o2 fix, please also post your bin.

    HTH, Elky
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #25
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    Hven't forgot, sorry for the delay. Ordered a new O2, but turns out the wiring for the o2 is all screwed up, so I'm having to pull apart the harness and trace it back as far as I can to get to good copper and splice back into it.
    THey also powered the heated O2 off of a fuel pump line with a ghost tap - which makes me crazy.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    A few other observations:
    ---Log indicates o2 sensor not connected. All data ~=450mv. Thus never in closed loop (CL), except at log sample 1912 when an errant reported mv=186 occurs outside 199mv and 699mv range (must be outside range for sensor to be declared active). Must have proper NBo2 voltage to ECM for CL, or will have to tune with WBo2 AFR or lambda because INT and BLM will always =128. Must correct this before proceeding with tuning (See attached Excel file).
    ---Was the car always in gear when idling? If not, trans wiring not correct because never show being in P/N. It is automatic, right?
    ---Regarding injectors. They appear to be 30# from log. But FYI, your engine likely only needs 24#. Leave the Flow rate constant at 30#/hr, but the VE tables will likely required major adjustment once you can log with the o2 sensor connected .

    When you post another log after o2 fix, please also post your bin.

    HTH, Elky
    ok. back, maybe now i can focus on learning this thing.

    Got the new o2 sensor in and wired, and it appears to be working. I'm getting readings from it now, and it's not throwing an SES light anymore.

    It is a manual transmission now, with a Dakota digital speedo corrector installed, which is why i get all the weird flutterings at idle. i've reconnected all the wires, ran them down opposite parts of the car, run the ground directly to the body at the box, and still get the flutter - probably going to have to figure out what resistor needs to be soldered in to stop the flutter if it's required.

    heres a current log and the .bin
    Attached Files Attached Files
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  12. #27
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    When you post another log after o2 fix, please also post your bin.

    HTH, Elky
    o2 fixed, some of the parameters pulled from S_AUJP to this bin.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  13. #28
    Electronic Ignition! trlrider's Avatar
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    84 Elky - another newbie here just learning allot. Your explanations are starting to clear up some confusion I have. All good stuff, thank you to you and the other experienced gearheads here that are willing to help.

  14. #29
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    Sorry for not responding for so long. Been working on another project. Have looked at your BIN and the 2 logs of 8/5/2020. My comments apply to both logs.

    Log Comments
    - Engine is pig rich (10-20%) AT <= 80 kPa all RPMs and especially at idle. This is due to a combination of VE tables and possible injector flow rate. To start, I'd reduce VE tables 5% at <=80 kPa at all RPMs, and 10% at idle RPM
    - Spark is too high despite AL heads because knock retard is occurring even without a slow knock count being reported. This is likely due to 10:1 CR and fuel. I'd reduce 5 degrees everywhere as a start and keep reducing until no retard.
    - Constantly reporting Error 13 (o2 sensor voltage in narrow range for too long). Not critical because going into CL. I need to review the cause of this.
    - Voltage appears low at switch and pump. Never above 13v. Should be 13.5+. Either you have a very well charged battery or alternator output not optimal. This will affect BPW due to voltage offset PW (see BIN comments below)
    - No indication that car is out of gear. Not important, just strange

    BIN Comments
    - I would change the following back to Factory settings. These likely got changed in the "custom tune":
    --- 0x5AC Decel Enlean, If NOT Active, Force INT=128 if RPM <=, from 900 to 1200
    --- 0x5EA DFCO, If in DFCO SS, Added to TF-TPS%, from 0.0% to 3.13% TPS (I believe you have manual trans, so if changing this causes undesirable results, can always change back
    --- 0x5EC AE-TPS, DFCO Stall Saver PW Adder, from 1.95 to 3.91 (ditto above)
    --- 0x617 PE, % Change to AFR .vs. RPM (Lambda W) (see attachment for Factory values you need) Yours are totally screwed up. Some negative. This will affect calculated PE AFR and thus PW when in PE
    Lw.GIF
    - Main Spark Table:
    --- I'd increase SA at idle RPM/kPa from 21.04 to 23 or 24 degrees based on your high CR and high MAP at idle.
    --- Spark at all kPas makes an exponential jump between 1400 and 1600 RPM. Wow!. Not what you want. The all-in spark is good at 3200 RPM. Take a look at this on how to build a Spark Table: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ml#post6301288
    - If you have a Manual Trans, your MUST set this bit which is not currently set: Switch 18 (0x018) - Bit 2 - Manual/Auto Transmission Select
    - Need to make the Changes to the ALDL Reporting Scalars to report a lot of info you're not currently seeing in a log (AE-TPS, AE-MAP, PE, DFCO, etc.) See bottom of page 26 of Readme in Appendix A. The ALDL Reporting Scalars are the first 63 Scalars in the XDF.
    - Injector offsets:
    --- Table at 0x40B: Injector PW Correction if PW < 3.90ms (Low PW Offset). Need to zero all values. They are adding undesired fuel at idle.
    --- Table at 0x3FA: Injector PW Correction .vs. Fuel Pump or Ignition Switch Voltage. Need to change from the Factory Multec settings but you don't know what injectors you have. I'd use 75% of your factory values until you can determine what they need to be -- especially with your switch/pump low voltage. Won't hurt anything other than consistently adding less fuel, which is what you need.
    - Unless you want it, I'd change all parameters that induce Highway spark and fuel (see S_AUJP Readme on how to disable)

    HTH, Elky

  15. #30
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    Wow. I swear I've checked this once a week and never saw this reply. Was about to try to figure out myself. Thanks, Elky.
    OK, first part is done (changed all the VE tables)
    second part - Do you mean reduce everywhere as in reduce at the distributor, then in the code? Or did you mean reduce all the spark in the spark tables by 5 degrees? (I did that, and then realized you made mention of a change to the main spark table based on original numbers)
    Electrical may have been a bad connection issue. It has a brand new 12SI on it - and also a new battery. But I was experiencing charging and grounding issues, and after pulling my hair out - the starter suddenly stopped working. Pulled it apart, and threw it in the trash, it had some pretty significant internal problems that may have been affecting voltage.
    I suspect it's not indicating it's out of gear because the PRNDL switch is plugged in and set to "Park", and hidden under the console.

    I've got a long road trip ahead, so I'll be spending some time reading through how to build a spark table. That was part of what brought me to this to start with was the feeling that the ignition system wasn't doing what it should. at certain temps, certain pressures, etc it acts like it's got a worn distributor cap, or frayed plug wires. it's nearly impossible to reproduce on command, but the way it acts when it does it is too consistent to be a fueling issue (I thought). THat's what had me chasing knock sensor issues.

    Also: The bottom of Page 26 in the readme file for S_AUJP is the instructions on transferring calibration. Do I have the wrong readme? We've already done that, that's why we're fighting with bizarre changes that should never have been made in the BIN...
    Last edited by doc_rock; 11-25-2020 at 06:26 PM.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

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