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Thread: Knock sensor and related parts

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Knock sensor and related parts

    Moving my troubles out of introductions and here.
    I've started working towards learning how this works, to try and get this car running right. It's never been 100%, but seems to have degraded over the last 3 years - granted a lot has changed on the car, and nothing to has changed on the efi.

    It's a 730 ecm with a custom burned eeprom - that I don't know if it was burned to the car or an eBay purchase. I have however loaded the stock 730 bins from this site (90 y, 90 f 5.0, 90 f 5.7, s_aujp v6.0 and a manual transmission 5.7 conversion Dave w sent). The 5.7 conversion Dave sent ran the best of the burned chips, but was not as good as the custom burn i already had.
    Running through various data logs, and trying to understand what all that means I've come up with more questions.
    Hardware:
    355 10:1 engine, forged and balanced crank, flat tops, gm lt4 hot cam with distributor gear, gm lt4 aluminum heads, roller valve train.
    Car has brand new (<1000 miles) urethane mounts, timing set, balancer, exhaust gaskets and studs, plugs, wires, icm, coil, wires to coil and ecm, pickup coil, cap and rotor. Newish (<5000 miles) head gasket, map, o2, temperature sensors, transmission (t56 conversion) clutch, cross member and torque arm.
    Base timing is set at 10 degrees which is as low as I can set it before the car dies with the est unplugged

    Issues:
    Continuous random misfire
    Random Misfire under acceleration
    Lack of power
    Excessively rich exhaust (faint black smoke most times but nearly always burns your eyes)
    Idling will slowly decrease until it can't run
    Timing won't stay steady at steady rpm - I've always attributed this to timing light, but worth mentioning here
    Random bucking and power drops at cruise on interstate
    Usually after 8 minutes if driving it throws an ses light, but clears itself after another 10-12 minutes or a couple of shifts

    Knock sensor: somebody here mentioned that exhaust banging around could set the knock sensor off.
    How does the ecu react to an unplugged knock sensor?
    Does it put it in limp mode, or just disable the input and throw a ses?
    Does the knock sensor have any effect on fuel curve?
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  2. #2
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Maybe a stupid question, but you are Speed Density, and not trying to run MAF with S_AUJP, right?

    Need to post your .BIN and either a TunerPro .xdl log file or an exported .csv log file showing the issues you describe.

  3. #3
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Maybe a stupid question, but you are Speed Density, and not trying to run MAF with S_AUJP, right?

    Need to post your .BIN and either a TunerPro .xdl log file or an exported .csv log file showing the issues you describe.
    It is definitely speed density. No maf, MAP sensor in the top of the intake over the number 2 cylinder. 1990 iroc, 1227730 ecm, originally ANFJ.
    Let me organize the csv files and I'll get them posted.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  4. #4
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    S_AUJP is that bin and the log associated with it
    The other is two log files from two roughly 30 minute drives.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  5. #5
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    These are logs from the chip that's in the car.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  6. #6
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Doc-Roc ---

    DO NOT RUN YOUR ENGINE WITH THE BIN YOU POSTED!!!!

    You have essentially taken the released v6 S_AUJP BIN and have only changed that shown below. Your bin on the left and released on the right. None of the spark, VE, etc. values in the Bin can be used as released. Most are merely examples to complete a table of data. A BIN contains a calibration that contains items which must be in accordance with the engine. They are edited with the XDF. And with your engine, and the v6 calibration, I'm surprised it even runs. MUST learn how to tune and enter appropriate values. More later, but DO NOT use the v6 BIN without making calibration changes!!!!!!
    Capture.GIF

    Elky

  7. #7
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    No problem. I'm back on my original chip/bin.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  8. #8
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    More ---
    My recommendations. In order to use S_AUJP, or any other bin, you have to have a good "starting point" calibration (the data the code uses which is edited with the XDF file). Without that, no need to start engine or log.
    1. If you don't have a Moates HDR6 adapter, go here and buy one ($10). It will allow you to extract a .BIN file from a chip using TunerPro:
    http://www.moates.net/hdr6-memcal-re...der-p-246.html

    2. Install the custom eeprom and extract the BIN on there to a file. This is your "starting point"

    3. Once you have completed step 2., you now have a calibration that needs to be transferred to S_AUJP. Go to the link below and download S_AUJP v6-4.zip and carefully read Appendix A of the "Must Read Me . . ." file:
    https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ml#post6345030

    4. Follow the instructions to use a Hex Editor to copy the calibration from the custom bin to S_AUJP. Save the now-calibrated s_AUJP bin. You now have a starting point bin with a calibration that somewhat works.

    5. Log this bin. But DO NOT hot rod it. Just do some gentle accelerations in each gear and some constant RPM/TPS periods of 15-20 seconds. At this point, no need to exceed 2500 RPM at any time.

    6. Post up that log. It can be used to determine what needs to be changed to go to the next step.

    HTH, Elky

  9. #9
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Thank you sir!
    I did not have that piece of hardware (and for some reason totally ignored it was possible. I have a couple of 3M test clips laying around, I was about to chop one up to fit that 28 pin chip, but for 10 bucks it's not worth cutting up a $20 test clip)

    Ordered and on the way. Soon as it gets here I'll knock everything out step by step.

    Thank you again.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    More ---
    My recommendations. In order to use S_AUJP, or any other bin, you have to have a good "starting point" calibration (the data the code uses which is edited with the XDF file). Without that, no need to start engine or log.
    1. If you don't have a Moates HDR6 adapter, go here and buy one ($10). It will allow you to extract a .BIN file from a chip using TunerPro:
    http://www.moates.net/hdr6-memcal-re...der-p-246.html

    2. Install the custom eeprom and extract the BIN on there to a file. This is your "starting point"

    3. Once you have completed step 2., you now have a calibration that needs to be transferred to S_AUJP. Go to the link below and download S_AUJP v6-4.zip and carefully read Appendix A of the "Must Read Me . . ." file:
    https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ml#post6345030

    4. Follow the instructions to use a Hex Editor to copy the calibration from the custom bin to S_AUJP. Save the now-calibrated s_AUJP bin. You now have a starting point bin with a calibration that somewhat works.

    5. Log this bin. But DO NOT hot rod it. Just do some gentle accelerations in each gear and some constant RPM/TPS periods of 15-20 seconds. At this point, no need to exceed 2500 RPM at any time.

    6. Post up that log. It can be used to determine what needs to be changed to go to the next step.

    HTH, Elky
    ok. I followed that, but I'm not sure I did it right - so before I post up any results - should it be running similar to the old chip, or similar to all the other experiences I've had.
    It barely runs. There's no gentle acceleration, it bucks all over the place. But before I go through and do all the above again to see what I missed - is that expected behavior?
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  11. #11
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    just stepped through everything, and I think I have it right.
    The only confusion I have is a couple places where referencing all these files for copy/paste/etc gets confusing.
    I'm assuming that I save a new S_AUJP file, and after that point in step 1.4 of the MUSTREADME doc, you would then call the S_AUJP you've saved out to, not the original.

    or am I screwing up saving it off as a different name?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  12. #12
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doc_rock View Post
    just stepped through everything, and I think I have it right.
    The only confusion I have is a couple places where referencing all these files for copy/paste/etc gets confusing.
    I'm assuming that I save a new S_AUJP file, and after that point in step 1.4 of the MUSTREADME doc, you would then call the S_AUJP you've saved out to, not the original.

    or am I screwing up saving it off as a different name?
    Looking at the 2 bins in your zip in Post #11, I have no idea what's been done.
    JMD012-355-tpi-7730-6_08_06_JMH.bin: This BIN is total garbage ans is not $8d. Have no idea what it is.
    S_AUJP v6-28jmh682020.BIN: This is essentially the released BIN without change.
    So not surprised it won't run.

    Let's go back to ground zero.

    1.
    Please post up the bin file you extracted from the "custom chip"

    2.
    Once that's available, I'll copy that calibration to S_AUJP and post it so you'll have a "starting point" bin.

    But when you post your bin file, you also need to describe how you will burn that bin to a chip so it can be used, or what intermediary device you will be using in place of a burned chip.

  13. #13
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Looking at the 2 bins in your zip in Post #11, I have no idea what's been done.
    JMD012-355-tpi-7730-6_08_06_JMH.bin: This BIN is total garbage ans is not $8d. Have no idea what it is.
    S_AUJP v6-28jmh682020.BIN: This is essentially the released BIN without change.
    So not surprised it won't run.

    Let's go back to ground zero.

    1.
    Please post up the bin file you extracted from the "custom chip"

    2.
    Once that's available, I'll copy that calibration to S_AUJP and post it so you'll have a "starting point" bin.

    But when you post your bin file, you also need to describe how you will burn that bin to a chip so it can be used, or what intermediary device you will be using in place of a burned chip.
    OK, now we're getting somewhere.
    The JMD012-355 bin is what is running in the car. That's the BIN from the original chip. So let's step through how I got that off of the chip - and tell me if I did it wrong.
    pulled the MEMCAL out of the car (7730)
    popped it in the moates chip adapter with the cold start/limp home modules hanging off the back of the burner
    notch on the chip pointed to the top
    opened flash n burn and copied the file down
    saved the buffer to bin

    is that the right process?
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

  14. #14
    Fuel Injected! 84Elky's Avatar
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    Doc ---
    My sincere apologies. You need the HDR1 ($10) to extract the bin from a 7730 MEMCAL, and not the HDR6. Don't know what I was thinking. That's why the extracted bin is garbage. HDR6 is for 128K.
    I talked to Moates and they will exchange it if you sent them an email and then they will provide instructions. For expediency, you might consider an out right purchase and then a return for credit. But do send an email or call at 225-341-3547. You might also talk to them about the proper procedure using your burner. I don't know because I use their autoprom and TunerPro. Again, apologies!

    HDR1 instructions here: http://www.moates.net/documentation....entation_id=12.
    Last edited by 84Elky; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:48 PM. Reason: Corrected phone #

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected! doc_rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Elky View Post
    Doc ---
    My sincere apologies. You need the HDR1 ($10) to extract the bin from a 7730 MEMCAL, and not the HDR6. Don't know what I was thinking. That's why the extracted bin is garbage. HDR6 is for 128K.
    I talked to Moates and they will exchange it if you sent them an email and then they will provide instructions. For expediency, you might consider an out right purchase and then a return for credit. But do send an email or call at 225-341-3541. You might also talk to them about the proper procedure using your burner. I don't know because I use their autoprom and TunerPro. Again, apologies!

    HDR1 instructions here: http://www.moates.net/documentation....entation_id=12.
    thank you!!!
    I'll get on it right now with them - well - in between conference calls or whatever it is.
    I'm beyond pleased we identified an issue - I hate throwing parts at anything.

    I'll let you know when that comes back. Thanks again!

    edit: So that also explains why everything was all strange in trying to compare the two .BIN, copy over the data (I had to copy the entire .bin, except for the last 10 or so lines) and nothing was the same in the file comparison.
    Last edited by doc_rock; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:01 PM.
    1990 F-Bomb
    355 urethane mounted noisemaker
    LT4 Roller Top end
    Some sort of cam
    vette stopping stuff
    4th gen rear
    headers that belong in a trash can
    some other unimportant things
    +15hp steering wheel and wheels combo

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