Retrofit 24x reluctor to early V8

[Jim Blackwood]

Some good test results today.

First I made up an octopus rig with diodes to combine all of the coil signals from the engine end of the harness. Then I unplugged the ECM from the simulator, left the power switched off, unplugged the cmp and ckp sensors on the car, jumpered the simulator sensors over to the car's ECM and tested with the key switch on and running the motor on the simulator. The result was a good solid trace for the CKP sensor, the CMP sensor, and then most importantly, the ignition pulsetrain.

Skipping ahead it seems most likely that the ckp sensor is bad (new). However it could also be the coil pack harnesses or the CKP sensor harness. So tomorrow's test is to swap out the ckp sensor, and then pick up the coil signals at the individual coils. Those two tests should be the final ones.

Jim

[Jim Blackwood]

To update and more or less close out this thread, I swapped in a new CKP sensor and now everything is working reliably. I don't think the sensor was bad, I think it was too far away from the tone wheel. Based on my experience I think the gap should be no more than 1/32"

So on with tuning and this is going to take some work. I do have one quick question, Other than the Moates '411 ECM with the external port installed (Around $600 I think) is there a less expensive option for real time tuning? I'm an old hand at that cheapie DIY built it yourself aftermarket controller and am doing OK learning TunerPro but I really miss being able to tune in real time. Is there any other alternative besides the high dollar guys?

Jim

[lionelhutz]

Moates is the only real-time option because it directly replaces the memory chip with an emulator. HP tuners and EFI Live don't do real time. No ODBII port tools do.

[NomakeWan]

You can do pseudo-realtime with the stock $EE 8051 PCM. Changes can be made on the fly to fueling, timing, etc, which can then be transferred into TunerPro to create a BIN which can then be flashed relatively quickly to the PCM. Of course this PCM doesn't handle direct control of coil-on-plug setups like the 0411 conversion from TORQHEAD and others would, but gonna put it out there anyway.

[In-Tech]

HpTuners used to do a real-time ram based tune as well. You make your changes real-time then save the file and burn it. I only used it once to try it out, can't remember if it cost more credits. I have a roadrunner when needed so it was just a test for me to check it out.

[brian617]

Doesn't HP Tuners support Real Time Tuning with their Custom Operating Systems? Or am I just dreaming that up?

[Jim Blackwood]

I'd have thought this would be ubiquitous. MS does it with a serial port which is of course old tech and has for about 2 decades. It makes initial setup and tuning pretty easy.

Jim

[lionelhutz]

brian617 - You're right, HPT can do RTT on some of the older gen3 PCM's. Probably a 0411 would be supported. But, it's limited in what can be done since the tables being used for RTT have to fit into the PCM RAM.

Jim Blackwood - The data running the engine isn't being transferred over the serial interface. All that is being done is writing changes to the tables in the MS via it's internal software and hardware setup. Same with ODBII, the PCM has to have the modifyable tables in memory and a way for the laptop program to modify them via the ODBII port. It's difficult in a GM PCM because it's not built to allow the ROM tables to be modified while the engine is running. So, you have to put a couple of tables into RAM and use them from RAM.

Planning for it and building it into the design is much easier then trying to get an existing PCM not meant for RTT to be able to support RTT.

[Jim Blackwood]

Thought I'd bring this thread up to date. After experimenting with PCMHammer (great app by the way, thanks guys, you are the best!), PCMLogger, EFILive, and HPTuner, as well as a few Android apps, OBDLink, and AllPro, and finding that they all have their strengths and weaknesses, I settled on HPT as having the features and resources I needed for this build. It wasn't an easy decision. Key elements were the availability of a 2 bar mod for the 12212156 OS and real time tuning, although now I realize that the RTT appears to be nerfed compared to what Megasquirt has which is just sad. OTOH, with their other tools it's not at all essential. Anyway, HPT won't do anything that the others can't do, they just have a well developed user interface. And you pay for it. I don't mind them turning a profit, I just think they are a bit aggressive about it. Still, for me it's a one time expense and again, pro/con, the licensing scheme is not user friendly.

So, having been helped to a good OS by friends here (thanks Carl), a 2 bar mod from HPT, and maps from a tune on their download site, plus considerable use of the benchtop simulator I built, gradually overcoming all the hurdles and most of the flaws in the systems, (both benchtop and in-car) yesterday I was able to start and run the car on the new OS. It was pig rich and half my scanner didn't work but the AFR graph was showing a 7.4:1 ratio. After some thought, I cut the entire VE table in half. A little more thought and I would have realized that was the wrong calculation but after fattening it back up by 1.2 twice I was in the 12-13 range and the engine was sounding perhaps as good as it ever has. I've leaned it by 98% for the next run and will do a full warmup and look at the AFR then, it should be close. At that point I'll have a look at the RTT and see what I can do with that. Then it's on to startup and warmup enrichments but as it stands it starts fairly easily on the second crank. Lights off, almost dies, then settles into a smooth, if rather high idle. All of which is fixable. Once I'm reasonably close I'll clone the ECM and sort out the issues I still have between the simulator and VCM Scanner, while keeping the original in the car until I'm finished tuning. At that point I plan to swap the clone into the car and keep the original on the simulator. I have a 3rd backup '411 which I will also eventually clone and carry in the trunk as an emergency spare when on trips.

So at this point I am going to declare the program as a success. A future upgrade includes a new engine based on the Buick 300 with a 340 crank (5.6=5.7L) and blower, using TAPerformance Rover heads (parts are at the machine shop). And when I feel like pursuing it, I have a 20K mile 8 speed automatic (AA80E) on the shelf ready to bolt up (It has been installed in the car before and run in limp mode). That will require the ECM and TCM out of the Caddy CTS-V, so not the simplest upgrade, but should be partially completed already. I just need to buy the controllers. But before that, I need to drive the car for awhile. Most likely getting the cruise to work again and then completing the AC install will be the priorities.

A warm thank-you for all the help folks here have given me. This has become one of my favorite forums, mainly because of the helpful attitudes of a number of standout denizens. I can point out a couple of other excellent forums if anyone has an interest. For LBC (Little British Car) enthusiasts, BritishV8.org and MGExperience.com, and for bus/RV conversions busconversionmagazine.com/forum is good. Maybe I'll see some of you there as well.

Jim