Tunerpro RT $4F connection problems

[duecepipes22]

I sent you a PM but I'll burn the chip tonight and give it a try! Thank you!

[duecepipes22]

You must have smoothened the curve out big time... that looks way better. Unfortunately I won't get a chance to try it out until tonight. My original tune had the idle set to 525 at running temps but one of the generic bins I found on here had it set for 700. Does 700 sound about right for a manual transmission and could the fact that it was idling so low have anything to do with it running so rich since it was all fuel and little air through the IAC?

[duecepipes22]

I got the chip burned and took it for a quick cruise, here is the log. It seemed to run a lot smoother but still a little jump where it goes from still slightly rich to perfect. It looks like it leaned out a little too much in a few spots, is that a cause for concern?

It idled pretty good before I actually drove it and at stop lights, but once I got back into the garage, it started "searching" again. Based on what you see in the log, is there anyway it could be an ignition problem or are you still leaning towards a vacuum leak?

[EagleMark]

If you have a manual you should always start with a manual bin and 700 seems correct, the lower Idle is for auto.

I'm not sure what's going on? You've got same cell change from 117 to next frame 140? Is running a lot better by logs though. There's not much advance in this chip at idle with spark bias, take a look at chip, I added another row for idle and adding some timing thoughout but also added some timing at idle, took away some fuel in those rich idle and decle areas. Look at it and give it a shot.

[duecepipes22]

Thats awesome, thanks again so much!

I gave it a try, here is the log. I think the extra timing woke it up a bit and the fact that its not bogging from running so rich, but it looks like its running pretty lean now from 1600-2400 rpm across the board and at 1200 in the higher kpa which makes me kinda nervous since its my daily driver. I also noticed that some cells have a range of over 30, could this be from a bad sensor or something or is that normal?

[EagleMark]

Before I do anymore are you comparing what I am doing? I don't want to make decisions for you I want to teach you and give some examples.

I'll look at the log but you do need to set your timing to 0 with timing wire disconnected! We can learn to get fuel dialed in, but I'm not sure at this point you have good fuel pressure all the time, maybe at idle. Have you changed the fuel filter lately? Hope there's not an issue with pump.

[duecepipes22]

Yeah I've been looking at everything you have done and trying to figure out how and why you do it. I'm not one to just sit back and watch, I'm here to learn.

My timing is at 0 with the wire disconnected. My fuel filter and fuel tank are about a year old, maybe 5000 miles on it so I wouldn't think it would be clogged already. The fuel pump is about 2 months old and its one of the vortec pumps (EP381) thats good up to 60 psi so I'm assuming its sufficient for 12 psi. I had checked the pressure about a month ago and it was rock solid but if you think it could be an issue, I'll pick up a pressure test kit from autos zone and check it tomorrow.

[EagleMark]

Well you seem to have the fuel and spark covered! I've not done a lot of work with this mask so I'm guessing the changes I'm seeing are Decel and DFCO parameters.

I would not be scared to drive it as is, BLM are not perfect but in ballpark. That little spark sure did take away some of that richness! Look at this bin and compare to your BLM history table after playing the log back. I added fuel to numbers above 128 and took away fuel from under 128, which was just idle. Then smoothed some.

Look at the main fuel table and your actually getting a torque hump already! This is good!

[duecepipes22]

I'm excited to give that a try tomorrow! I'll check on my fuel pressure too, just to be sure. I see what you mean about the torque hump... thats pretty cool and unlike ANYTHING I got from the other guys "tune". That doesn't actually show where the max torque is though, does it? Seems lower than I would have expected. Is that normal for timing advance to dry things up like that?

I'm looking at the compare bins and I see exactly why you are adding and subtracting fuel in each cell except in the 30 kpa, 800-1600 rpms, it was lean there, but you subtracted a little more fuel. Does that have to do with the deceleration enleanment? Also, are you using an equation to figure out how much fuel to add or subtract? I've seen different equations online but whatever you are using seems to be dialing it in very quickly.

Yeah, I've got the fuel pretty well covered, but the only things that have been changed on the spark end is plugs, wires, cap and rotor. The dizzy, coil and module are all original as far as I know, which means 263,000 miles of experience.

[EagleMark]

The tourque hump is lower then actual peak tourque but the start of it need for MORE FUEL, its nice to see when it starts to form when doing a tune, most guys just overlook the need and smooth it through and let ECM/PCM do all the work. If you get VE fuel and spark set right it just runs good all the time, even open loop.

I'm looking at the compare bins and I see exactly why you are adding and subtracting fuel in each cell except in the 30 kpa, 800-1600 rpms

This is the area that has been doing weird stuff, changing BLM for rich to lean, it's below idle and only obtainable at deceleration. So I went by lower numbers. When your looking at your BLM history table there is a minimum and a maximum take a look at that feature. What I saw was rich during decel but when you accel it went lean, so I beleive it is rich, have to look more into Decel procedures and see if there are some tweaks there.

I've seen different equations online but whatever you are using seems to be dialing it in very quickly.

I usually tune live and rough in a tune very quicky, it's taken years and 100s of tunes to get there. I just did yours the same way, knowing about what it needs here and taken away from there. I've forgotten formulas but we should go over it here somewhere. Once I rough it in I kill power to ECM/PCM so it looses learn, maybe need one more rough, kill power to loose learn again, then do a good datalog and use one of Dave W spreadsheets in excel or Open Office which does the calculations for you. I love Dave! But he hasn't done one for the $4F VE table yet and I have still not had time to learn speadsheets to do my own... don't even want to think about it till winter!!!!

Is that normal for timing advance to dry things up like that?

Yes! I wish I knew the technical reason but only know it works during tuning. That's why guys go back and forth constantly. Once you know it's running safe I usually add some timing, not all, to get it over with and add fuel, but like I said I do it live. You've still got room for more spark but that is up to you, I don't like to help push limits of spark when I am not there!

I've even got my son trained to drive while I tune, we have our route, he takes directions well as what I want him to do with gas pedal. If there are no mechanical issues, which usually there is, I can do a cammed built motor including idle in under 3 hours. Ones that go on to dyno are usually within 10% fuel/spark on the safe side. But that's 35 years mechanics, 25 years EFI and conversions and full time tuning for last 5 years and lots of friends here! Several are on speed dial and answer phone for me any time I call.

And I'm still a novice... but I live and literally dream this stuff! Really, I wake up shocked sometimes "That won't work!" Or run out to my laptop and do some work... I know I'm sick...

Just got 2 more books for fathers day from my kid written by Greg Banish, would love to attend his school or the EFI university next summer in Seattle for a week.

[duecepipes22]

Wow.... I knew I had a ton to learn, but now I realize I have even more than I realize!

That makes sense with the torque hump because thats where I already noticed it start to pull a little harder even before all this tuning.

Should I be resetting my ECM before putting each chip in? I haven't been doing that because I still don't understand what the ECM "learns" vs what it just listens to on the chip. Such as, if its running rich and it knows it, why doesn't it just cut back the fuel rather than needing to cutting it back in the chip.

I've been looking at the min/max values with each log but had no idea how to apply them to tuning. I've seen Dave's conversion chart and attempted to learn use it with my mask and quickly learned that it either doesn't work or I have no idea how to use it.

I'm going to burn the bin from last night and give it a try today! As always, thank you for taking the time to teach me this stuff, I can't thank you enough!

[RobertISaar]

the MPFI V6 masks from ~1989 and onwards use a mode 4 command to reset all of the BLM cells.... i'd be amazed if there wasn't something like it in this application.

[duecepipes22]

Does that mean that it automatically resets itself or that I need to manually do it?

[RobertISaar]

well, aren't i observant.... 4F = 160 baud = unidirectional.

so, no, there won't be a command for this to reset the cells. you'll have to pull a fuse or the connector for the ECM to reset the cells.

[duecepipes22]

I just gave the new tune a try... I had disconnected the battery to reset things, which is the first time I've done that so I hope it didn't cause any logging problems. The numbers were looking great until I jumped on the interstate and cruised at about 2000 RPMs, then the BLMs went right back up to the 140s. I'm going to check my fuel pressure right now because I would have thought that with the fuel you added last time, I would have brought those numbers down. Here is the log...