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Thread: introduction from (to?) California

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiho View Post
    I just came back to comment on this. Neither a label nor an EO is "proof" of anything, just your statement that a piece of paper applies to your swap. A piece of paper with info that tells the Referee what he's supposed to look at to inspect it.
    I'm confused by your wording, but I think the whole process sucks. Like why there are hoops to go through to convert a carbureted polluter to a better fuel injection system. Why can't they just forget the entire visual inspection and only worry about the stuff coming out of the exhaust pipe?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiho View Post
    This has me wondering. I can see how you might get a Pick-n-Pull motor out of the donor. How do you then roll that 600+ lbs all the way out over all that deep gravel to the point where you can load it into your vehicle to haul it home?

    B-bodies with LO3s are available, and every year has an EO. Sure it's substantially less torque, but only 10 hp less than an LO5 ....

    Amazing how pathetic your thinking can get ....
    From my comment, I meant the charcoal canister.... A pick and pull is still an easy place to get a motor as they have the hoists and forklift to help you..... My problem with Pull yards is that there was a reason the vehicle was there to begin with so it is a gamble unless you do a full rebuild anyway.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by c5wagner View Post
    I'm confused by your wording, but I think the whole process sucks. Like why there are hoops to go through to convert a carbureted polluter to a better fuel injection system. Why can't they just forget the entire visual inspection and only worry about the stuff coming out of the exhaust pipe?
    Sorry for confusion. The official "Engine Change Guidelines" say that the Referee needs "proof" of which certification the donor engine has, California or Federal. But he only has your word for it that the "proof" you provide actually applies to your donor engine. It does however tell him exactly what motor you SAY it is (year, make and model, as well as certification), which in turn guides his inspection.

    I could not agree more with you about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by c5wagner View Post
    A pick and pull is still an easy place to get a motor as they have the hoists and forklift to help you..... My problem with Pull yards is that there was a reason the vehicle was there to begin with so it is a gamble unless you do a full rebuild anyway.
    If that's true it's a piece of cake. As for the gamble, that's true for any junkyard motor. At least at Pick-n-Pull you have a chance to look it over first. It's generally a lot cheaper too. And if it won't cut it, you can take it back.
    Last edited by jiho; 04-14-2019 at 02:43 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiho View Post
    Where? I just went there, and didn't find any mention of BINs for sale.
    For OBD1 BCC .bin files I email tc@tunercat.com with the OBD1 VIN #.

    dave w

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by c5wagner View Post
    My problem with Pull yards is that there was a reason the vehicle was there to begin with so it is a gamble unless you do a full rebuild anyway.
    These days the main reason it's there could be the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Past a certain number of years you won't get much from anybody for it, so that might be your best deal if you just don't want it anymore. Pick-n-Pull is the only yard here that gets those cars.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiho View Post
    These days the main reason it's there could be the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Past a certain number of years you won't get much from anybody for it, so that might be your best deal if you just don't want it anymore. Pick-n-Pull is the only yard here that gets those cars.
    Well I've pulled plenty of engines from the pick and pull but have rebuilt every single one. For my 69 firebird, I grabbed a 4 bolt main 350 from a truck, grabbed the crank from a 400 block from a truck and some nice vortec heads. Built a very nice 383 stroker that kept breaking axle shafts..... Still, most of the engines I've taken apart that I pulled had oval shaped bores and cracked heads.... Luckily I have a very close friend that owns a machine shop that takes care of me, he even takes the cracked heads and furnace brazes the cracks so they are like new.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    For OBD1 BCC .bin files I email tc@tunercat.com with the OBD1 VIN #.

    dave w
    How did you find out about this, anyway? Is it mentioned on their website somewhere?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiho View Post
    How did you find out about this, anyway? Is it mentioned on their website somewhere?
    I don't remember, I've been doing business with TunerCats for several years now. I don't know if there is a link on the website for OBD1 BCC .bin files. I've purchased several OBD2 .cal files and a handful of OBD1 .bin files from TunerCats, using the VIN #.

    For OBD2, I often search autotrader for a VIN # that has the specific powertrain I need a .cal file for. Sometimes autotrader will have OBD1 vehicles listed, but not very often. Sometimes a VIN # can be found by contacting a Craigslist seller.

    dave w

  8. #53
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    I believe the first, best step is for you to determine the point at which a reasonable inspector stops inspecting so you can be comfortable moving ahead. You are obviously more concerened than most on this site, and even more concerned than someone who has successfully completed a similar process in the same state. Is that level of concern warranted for the guys in the pits who deal with uneducated kids trying to skirt laws and the people who fail to fully understand the requirements before showing up with an "Engine swap?" Maybe not.

    Relevant links are here and here.

    The list of vehicles with L05 engines and California certification from 1987 to 1993 is huge. Everything from pickups to passenger cars shows up in the list. So you should have plenty of vehicles to choose from. So, how to decide a plan?


    CARB strongly recommends using a single donor vehicle. I would agree. But after seeing the Engine Change Guidelines it's pretty clear that it can't be a pickup because the rules state the engine must be from the same vehicle class. Passenger car to passenger car. So what next?

    If you are wanting a 350 there are only a few choices. There are two calibrations available for the Caprice / Roadmaster vehicles including BBBX and BHHR. There are ten Fleetwood Brougham calibrations available: AXMM, AWJN, AWJP, BCML, BCWZ, BCXA, BCXC, BFZB, BFYZ, and BFYY. Then there is the most interesting of calibrations: BPSL. BPSL is not listed as fitting any specific carline in GM's PROM database. A quick search of the 'net returns two results. One is for Buick commercial chassis, and one is for Caprice commercial chassis. I'm not sure where you'd find one but the rarity of the vehicle might give you an edge with the referee.

    So how does the referee know that the equipment comes from the vehicle you state? As you've pointed out, it's circumstantial evidence. The following documents/items add credibility:

    Bill of sale for donor vehicle.
    Portion of donor vehicle with emissions label attached (like a small piece of the radiator support cut out and brought along).
    Block identification matching donor vehicle
    ECM that matches donor vehicle
    OEM appearing ductwork, wiring, fuel lines, a/c hoses, etcetera.
    Exhaust manifolds, charcoal canister, converter, intake manifold that match donor vehicle.

    What does not help: A pile of mismatched parts, each being from a compliant vehicle but not in a combination which was ever offered together in CA. Block, exhaust, or intake system that IDs as from a different vehicle class.

    What cannot be determined easily: ECM non-compliance if label is correct, calibration non-compliance if the scan ID matches and the vehicle passes dyno testing, inernal modifications to compliant parts if vehicle passes dyno testing.

    What I would do: Begin the hunt for a Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham that is L05 equipped. car-parts.com shows three yards selling an engine computer. Two of the three list the BCC's as Cali compliant from the list above. Changing the query to engine returns four pages of vehicles, mostly trucks or vans. I'm not sure why they do that because the truck/van engines are slightly different configuration. But there are a couple listing Roadmaster/Caprice engines. Maybe one of the yards with a Caddy or Caprice will sell the title to the vehicle for a reasonable fee? At the least you can generate a pile of receipts from the same vehicle family to bring to the referee.

    Whate else I would do: Start asking people on the interwebz for engine replacement stories and listen to the successes. Attitude and documentation are going to play a big part imo.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    The list of vehicles with L05 engines and California certification from 1987 to 1993 is huge. Everything from pickups to passenger cars shows up in the list. So you should have plenty of vehicles to choose from.
    I should, but I don't. First, in California a truck motor is not allowed in a passenger car (not even light duty truck). That reduces the list drastically. The long block could possibly be used, underneath a bunch of stuff from a car.

    Second, you haven't read my posts very well.

    As for "California certified," exactly how that's defined for swapping purposes remains to be completely resolved. I still need to call the Engine Change Hotline to try to get some clarification on that. Cars were sold here that weren't truly California certified. As it stands I'm being pessimistic, and going by the EOs that have been posted by CARB.

    Anyway, I question whether an LO5 would be worth going to very much trouble for. There is a point of diminishing returns.
    Last edited by jiho; 04-14-2019 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    You are obviously more concerened than most on this site, and even more concerned than someone who has successfully completed a similar process in the same state.
    Most people on this site don't live in California. And knowing the rules, I'm not going to invest a lot of time, trouble and money based on assumptions and wild guesses about what a Referee might or might not do.

  11. #56
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    I can tell you my experiences with CA smog testing; in 2002 I bought my 88 C1500 Silverado 5.7L from a guy who managed a transmission shop in Los Banos (San Joaquin valley). He had recently installed a GM Goodwrench long block and rebuilt the trans. When I bought it I had to get it smogged - no problems, each successive time - no problems. When I moved to AZ in 2008 I had it "emissions" tested - no problems every 2 years since - no problems. Just throw some dirt and oil all over the engine to make it look old and don't offer any information.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiho View Post
    Most people on this site don't live in California. And knowing the rules, I'm not going to invest a lot of time, trouble and money based on assumptions and wild guesses about what a Referee might or might not do.
    Please go through this page, you seem to be over stressing something that isn't that bad.... https://jagsthatrun.com/pages/dont-w...rnia-smog-laws

  13. #58
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    In your (earlier) words:

    Quote Originally Posted by c5wagner View Post
    I'm confused by your wording, but I think the whole process sucks. Like why there are hoops to go through to convert a carbureted polluter to a better fuel injection system. Why can't they just forget the entire visual inspection and only worry about the stuff coming out of the exhaust pipe?
    So (now) it "isn't that bad"?

    What I'm stressing is the RULE that any motor I swap into my California-certified car must be a California-certified car motor.

    All this trivial disputation and hand-waving is getting repetitious.

    BTW, that page is VERY out of date. The sticker they show bears no resemblance to what Referees have been using for well over 15 years that I know about.
    Last edited by jiho; 04-14-2019 at 11:24 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    car-parts.com shows three yards selling an engine computer. Two of the three list the BCC's as Cali compliant from the list above.
    Car-Part.com is mostly stale listings mixed with a few dead links. Most yards don't even reply. I found a few items locally one time, but that was on their own web site that uses a totally different inventory system, and generally doesn't show much of what Car-Part.com says they have.

    Thanks for pointing me to the BCWZ listing. I missed that, and have submitted an inquiry. But given the preceding, I'm not optimistic. The web site link gets an "Under Construction." If there's no reply, I'll try the phone number sometime.

    BTW, I was put off by your first paragraph. The rest of it is actually more reasonable than I thought, once I ploughed through it all.

    But you're in NH? Can't get much farther away, lol.
    Last edited by jiho; 04-15-2019 at 02:00 AM.

  15. #60
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    Car-Part.com is mostly stale listings mixed with a few dead links. Most yards don't even reply.
    I have purchased items from yards all across the country using car-part. I have also found dead listings on car-part. No, most yards do not reply to email. But with "unlimited minutes" and internet access to check phone numbers, a phone call is a relatively inexpensive investment. And for me it often provides a way to decide whether or not to do business with the yard. I'll accept that Cali may be different, but overall the reference is still useful and their database could locate a Cali vehicle in an out of state yard.

    I don't know how you found BCCs and determined them to be California compliant. The only indications I see are car model year and state the yard is in. Neither is conclusive.
    A search for an engine computer for a 1993 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with a 350 produces three listings. Two of the three listings include BCC in the description. The BCC's match up with GM's list of Cali certified Cadillac Brougham calibrations. See photo. The third listing shows the ecm label and VIN which can be used to determine emissions compliance. I have not looked that one up.

    BTW, I was put off by your first paragraph. The rest of it is actually more reasonable than I thought, once I ploughed through it all.
    Thank you for taking the time. None of it is intended to be insultory nor derogatory.

    But you're in NH? Can't get much farther away, lol.
    Not much. If I am able to offer any help it is through access to and understanding of information that is mostly available online.

    FWIW we also have emissions rules and compliance issues here. "Engine replacements" require a trip to the state capital to get approval. Some succeed, some do not. We also have annual safety inspections to abide by. And if you build a custom car or hot rod you have an additional state police conducted safety inspection which must be performed prior to the annual state safety inspection. The same holds true for an insurance total that has been rebuilt.
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