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Thread: '87 350 TBI, custom application, looking to go bare-bones

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    '87 350 TBI, custom application, looking to go bare-bones

    Here's my situation:

    Back in 2014 I picked up an '87 r30 w/ 350 tbi to use as the base for a specialty vehicle I was creating. I have since radically modified the rig, including relocating the driver controls.

    The vehicle never drives faster then 15-20 mph, averaging 5 mph, and most of the time during operation she sits at idle turning two high output alternators providing power back to 4 -12v "house" batteries

    The one issue I'm having is the motor runs very rich at idle and upon acceleration.

    The old wiring harness was pretty beat up, and I wanted to keep things simple under the hood so I purchased a new wiring harness, new injectors, new o2 sensor, temp sending unit and Map sensor. When relocating the driver controls, the only wiring I brought up to the new driver location are the ignition wires. I installed new aftermarket fuel, temp and oil pressure gauges. Needless to say, I don't have the idiot lights ie: service engine lights etc. The new wiring harness does have the code reader, however I don't have a way to pull the codes.

    I'd like to keep the tbi running with the bare min sensors, ie: 02, MAP, temp sensors. Which wires/sensors don't I need? What could be causing this extreme rich conditions? Could the ECM be in "limp" mode? Outside of the motor running rich, she has very little power, bogs down and really struggles to go over a speed bump at slow speeds and currently takes about 3-4 cranks to fire up. All of these issues began after installing the new wiring harness.

    I don't have to worry about emissions either as this will never be registered as a street legal rig. Primarily for festivals, parades and special events so I don't need to run the smog pump etc.


    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Fuel Injected! PlayingWithTBI's Avatar
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    Have you thought about finding a used manifold and carburetor and throwing them on? You'd have to drill out the center two bolt holes to accept the 72* bolt angle TBI manifolds use, throw in an HEI distributor and maybe a hand throttle to raise RPMs while charging your batteries?

  3. #3
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    One of the reasons I chose the 87 R30 was for the 350 TBI. I will never own another Carbed Vehicle again. I restored a '68 GTO w/ 400 motor and after 15 years of carburetor adjustments I purchased a FiTech TBI system, the best $1,500 I ever spent. I just don't want to deal with all of the adjustments. I'm getting to old and technology has gotten that good.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    I think it would be worth the effort and expense to have a TBI system running closed loop.

    The necessary components for "Closed Loop":
    MAP
    TPS
    IAC
    CTS
    HO2S (3 wire O2)
    Distributor using an 8 pin ignition module
    TBI Externally Mounted Coil

    (optional?)
    VSS
    ALDL Diagnostics Connector (for data logging / reading trouble codes)
    Knock Sensor
    SES

    Additional 1227747 ECM Information Link: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-42

    dave w

  5. #5
    Fuel Injected!
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    What exactly did you have with the engine up to now.
    Which ecm do you have?
    The harness is from or for which car?
    I have changed from carburator to tbi and o2 sensor would not start to work. It took me some hours changing 02 sensors and switching cables. At least I found the problem. Here on the forum you have a conversion sheet for the connection of cables when switching to an other ecm.A10 is plus from the o2 sensor and A12 is minus to the 02 sensor, but I had to connect minus to ground too,then the o2 sensor worked and engine runs in closed loop as desired. Have a look to this too.
    As a newbie i had lot of problems getting tunerpro-rt to work. And tunerpro-rt is the only diagnostic programm i could connect to my ecm! Read the faq at tunerpro and have a look to the tunerpro forum. Data cable is very easy to build, just a usb-ttl converter ( should be 5 Volt version with fdti chip or P2102 from silicon labs, 3V china will often not work) and a socket to the car.
    And the forum here is very good for further questions and help.
    Last edited by mecanicus; 12-18-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  6. #6
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    I think it would be worth the effort and expense to have a TBI system running closed loop.

    The necessary components for "Closed Loop":
    MAP
    TPS
    IAC
    CTS
    HO2S (3 wire O2)
    Distributor using an 8 pin ignition module
    TBI Externally Mounted Coil

    (optional?)
    VSS
    ALDL Diagnostics Connector (for data logging / reading trouble codes)
    Knock Sensor
    SES

    Additional 1227747 ECM Information Link: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-42

    dave w

    Hey Dave, thanks for the info. the Rig has all of the original components under the hood. Which is what I'm assuming you listed that I needed? The new wire harness has the ALDL connector.

    I guess the best thing for me to do is to find a way to pull the codes?

  7. #7
    Fuel Injected! PlayingWithTBI's Avatar
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    SES light and shorting pins A & B or TunerPro RT and ALDL cable

  8. #8
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    OK, I ordered a OBD1 Cable and got all set up with WinALDL.

    I logged a bunch of data and was hoping someone could glance it over for me. Dave W, i did notice it was flagging "closed loop"

    i have the log.txt , BLM.txt, INT.txt, O2. txt and KNOCK.txt.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    I strongly feel WinALDL is OBSOLETE! I haven't used in many years.

    TunerPro RT is SUPERIOR in so many WAYS!

    dave w

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    Haha ok, I'll download it and get a log reading this afternoon. Thanks!

  11. #11
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    Hey Dave,
    there was definitely a slight learning curve with that software, but figured it out pretty quickly :-)

    I'm not able to drive the rig around right now, however I was able to get it up to operation temperature and recorded some data.

    I attached the data file.

    Thanks Again!

    -Mike
    Attached Files Attached Files

  12. #12
    Fuel Injected! sturgillbd's Avatar
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    It appears to be open loop at idle. What is the 4 letter designation on the chip in the computer? Some of the early 7747's had open loop idle. You probably need to use a heated O2 sensor with this setup and idle can be tuned. May have to change the chip to a later calibration. The computer can be modified to accept the flash type chip and you can get stuff to burn your own chip or get someone on here to burn one for you.

  13. #13
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    It's definitely open loop at idle. I haven't looked at the chip yet, I'll do some research and figure out where to find it. I've read several places about using a heated O2 sensor, what's the benefit installing one?

  14. #14
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrgto68 View Post
    Hey Dave,
    there was definitely a slight learning curve with that software, but figured it out pretty quickly :-)

    I'm not able to drive the rig around right now, however I was able to get it up to operation temperature and recorded some data.

    I attached the data file.

    Thanks Again!

    -Mike
    Congrats on figuring out TunerPro RT.

    The single wire O2 sensor is using the heat from the exhaust gases only to maintain the minimum operating temperature for the O2 sensor to work correctly. Often the exhaust gases are not hot enough for the single wire O2 sensor to maintain the minimum operating temperature for the O2 sensor work correctly.

    A three wire O2 sensor has a heating element to maintain the correct operating temperature of the O2 sensor.

    dave w

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected! Mrgto68's Avatar
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    Ok, makes total sense.

    I just placed an order for the ACDelco AFS74 and the three wire harness adapter. Should have it installed by tomorrow evening.

    I noticed that I was getting a VSS error. When I installed the new ECM Wiring Harness, I don't remember if I hooked up VSS connector.

    Where would I begin looking for the VSS wire connection on a 1987 R30 350TBI?

    This is freaking awesome, Thank you all, seriously. I've been a classic car guy working on GM motors since around the age of 16, 34 years of tuning Carburetors.. the whole TBI / ECM thing is recently new to me, started when I went to the 2015 SEMA show out here in Vegas and first saw the Fi-tech drop in "fuel injection" system. Was blown away by the technology and immediately purchased one for my '68 GTO. I will NEVER touch another Dinosaur Carburetor ever again lol...

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