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Thread: Opensource LS Flashing(It's Closer Than You Think)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteS View Post
    That is for more complex then it needs to be.

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...7PIwC%252bY%3d

    A VERY simple circuit is all that's needed and it can do both 1x and 4x

    Datasheet....
    http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...Doc/39626e.pdf

    And best of all it's still in production and comes in a DIP package.
    So you're changing ships and going to the PIC from the AVR that you're currently using? The above drawing is just the arduino board plus the simplified 1x/4x VPW level shifter circuit. As I said above, if you don't need the Arduino you just use the top part that includes the voltage regulation to the VPW 8V bus, and the 5V logic bus to power whatever microprocessor you want to use.

    Also, not sure if you meant to link a different transceiver or if you thought there was one built into the PIC, but the part you linked is pretty much going to need all the same stuff in the above drawing, plus another interface to get from RS-232 to USB. The drawing above includes the USB interface, the complete microprocessor and all it's support components (which are substantially the same as what you need for the PIC) the power supply, and the VPW transceiver. No dongles/adaptors needed.

    You could use the ATmega328p in DIP form factor too...and then continue using your arduino code instead of having to do a complete rewrite for the PIC. Still gonna need a USB interface, crystal and load capacitors, reset button, both voltage regulators, and the VPW interface, so I don't see how your link above helps you simplify anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteS View Post
    Obdlink MX supports 3K packets

    ObdLink Sx Suports a touch under 2K packets.

    Adx files already exist for Elm protocols.

    Did this last week just messing around to see what would happen......
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMQU2gDfpOg

    I'm so tempted to write the code into my current Android app just to see big blocks.....but I'm in the middle of a total rewrite on the app changing every thing to block mode and I really don't want to add it into a outdated version. The rewrite is a long ways from being done but I'm going for stability with the rewrite not just making it work in the fastest possible time.
    Ok, so block mode needs to support 4096bit blocks, I can make sure that happens.

    I thought you were using the flash tool and ADX/XDF that Dimented24x7 wrote to work out of. His software and ADX files, IIRC, are written for the AVT-852 cable, and speak a totally different language to the ELM chips.

    So, what hardware is your open source tool actually using?
    Last edited by Xnke; 02-27-2018 at 10:13 PM.

  2. #32
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    Nope I'm not "doing" any thing. I linked the pic for your benefit, rather then trying to use obsolete parts you could consider something that's still in production and works with a very basic circuit with out a transceiver.....and it could communicate with the Arduino over serial data if you want to, I've done it before.

    The arduino to date is the only interface outside of things like the AVT that can do 4k blocks. Others can get close but would need modified firmware to achieve 4x speeds. The arduino it's just a matter of adding an additional set of timing markers to get into 4x. Now you don't need 4k blocks or need 4x mode they both just make things a lot faster. One of the guys in the group working on this has actually read out a bin in 1 byte blocks.....a long time doesn't even come close to describing how long that took. The purpose was too see if there was a minium block size that had to be read since there is a maximum block size. As it turns out 1 byte does work so it's just an upper limit.

    What we are using represents more then 10 years of research from a lot of different people.....not just Dimenteds. We are taking a lot more open minded approach then others have, rather then focus on only supporting one type of interface with a program like others have we are exploring a "universal" type program that would be easily adaptered to multiple interfaces giving users a much larger choice of how they would like to use it.

    And yes, an Android based version will also exist, but since Bluetooth isnt as reliable as USB connection it will be much more limited in terms of what it will do. For example an Android version will never support a full OS write. It would be limited to calibration writes. If you want to start swapping Os's around do It on a computer not a phone.

    The Adx/Xdf your referring to is but one of many that will need to be created. I have started working on this but it's going to take a long time to do. There are something like 30 primany Os's across the 99-07 pcm's and then there's around 200 segment combations that could also be used. The read/write aspect of this will be done a long time before all the Xdf's will completed.

  3. #33
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    Anybody have the diagram from Xnke's post (#25)?
    I would LOVE to see it, but apparently it has been pulled?

    Thanks, Mike

  4. #34
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    It's still there, Mike.

    Pete, nothing in the schematic I posted has been obsolete or will be anytime soon. The part that my schematic replaces that is MUCH simpler, (the dedicated transceiver chip) has been obsoleted-so I have drawn it using the still very widely available, in production, discrete parts instead. (obsolete part is an 8-pin surface mount chip, my solution is completely available in through-hole if you want it as an 8 pin DIP, two TO-220 and two TO-92 parts.)

    I've got 4x mode working right now, and have it running on the bench PCM next to a noise generator to test for error detection and correction. I'm gonna let it run for a few hours and see how the error rates look.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    Now I've done it...

    Only things left is to get it working in AVT compatible mode so all the ADX's that Dimented24x7 wrote will work still, and then figure out how block transfer mode should work because I got no clue how that happens.
    If you make it compatible with the avt commands, that will open a whole lot of opportunities for using it with a software like dhp and some other popular stuff.
    The basic commands are not that much and can be easily mimicked. I have a good knowledge of them and will help you out. I will get you some serial dumps of pcm read and the AVT manual if you don`t have it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    It's still there, Mike.

    Pete, nothing in the schematic I posted has been obsolete or will be anytime soon. The part that my schematic replaces that is MUCH simpler, (the dedicated transceiver chip) has been obsoleted-so I have drawn it using the still very widely available, in production, discrete parts instead. (obsolete part is an 8-pin surface mount chip, my solution is completely available in through-hole if you want it as an 8 pin DIP, two TO-220 and two TO-92 parts.)

    I've got 4x mode working right now, and have it running on the bench PCM next to a noise generator to test for error detection and correction. I'm gonna let it run for a few hours and see how the error rates look.

    I had been using I.E. 11. Decided to try Chrome, and sure enough it is showing! Thanks, Mike.

  7. #37
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    Hey guys...way over my head but I'm following this thread, been collecting 411's for that special day:-)

    FYI: Each time that I open this thread in Chrome and approach post #35 there is no image and suddenly my screen crashes. If I backspace and scroll down again..it crashes each time. If I open the thread in FireFox or Safari no problem viewing the entire thread?

  8. #38
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    something in the way chrome handles links to IMGUR. Ever since photobucket decided to screw their users I switched.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    It's still there, Mike.

    Pete, nothing in the schematic I posted has been obsolete or will be anytime soon. The part that my schematic replaces that is MUCH simpler, (the dedicated transceiver chip) has been obsoleted-so I have drawn it using the still very widely available, in production, discrete parts instead. (obsolete part is an 8-pin surface mount chip, my solution is completely available in through-hole if you want it as an 8 pin DIP, two TO-220 and two TO-92 parts.)

    I've got 4x mode working right now, and have it running on the bench PCM next to a noise generator to test for error detection and correction. I'm gonna let it run for a few hours and see how the error rates look.
    I'll go and take a closer look at it then, I looked at the transceiver chips that had been linked......I know all about those and have been down that road trying to find one's still avaible.

    I'm curious to know what you have the pcm doing while it's in 4x mode since with out the appropriate VPW commands it won't stay in 4x mode for very long with out rebooting.Unless your using the older "Blackbox" style pcm I find that somewhat hard to believe.

    If you are using the "Blackbox" style then you need to drop it and move to the LS style since they have very little in common.


    And what your doing sounds a lot like what you "accused" me of in your initial post you made in this thread. There is a "Group" of people actively working on this project, some are remaining behind the scene so to speak while providing some valuable information , others are just choosing to focus on the work they are doing currently. Where not out to reinvent the wheel with this....we're designing a blueprint so to speak that ANYONE will be able to use across multiple platforms with out becoming tied to any specific type of hardware.

    I'm not at liberty to say what programs specifically; but we(the people that need it) have been provided source code (from the authors directly) of existing software for "educational research"(Not reuse) to help streamline this entire project. People that have already written software regardless of if it was ever released or not see the value in what we are doing for the community as a whole and have contributed to make sure this actually happens.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    So, what hardware is your open source tool actually using?
    The Arduino is know about but there are some other tools that we have been looking at. The Avt852 as well but due to cost alone it's not something we are directly focusing on.

    These are some of what's currently being worked with.....
    http://www.obdlink.com/mxbt/

    http://www.obdlink.com/sxusb/

    http://www.obddiag.net/allpro.html

    http://www.obddiag.net/allpro.html#bluetooth

    http://www.obddiag.net/allpro.html#usb


    These are others we are looking into......But have not tried yet....

    http://www.vxdiagshop.com/wholesale/...r-gm-opel.html

    http://www.buyobdtoolshop.com/wholes...gle-cable.html

    http://www.uobdii.com/wholesale/mini...able-2442.html

  11. #41
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    The PCM on my bench is not a Blackbox PCM, it's an 0411 from a 2002 S10 blazer. It'll talk in 4x mode fine, as long as you keep poking it over and over and over again...it just doesn't say much. In 1x mode it's been chattering with the a BCM from a Grand prix...they don't understand what the other's on about, but they keep trying to talk over each other as long as I keep poking them with a data request. All I have to do is listen, send a few commands, try to get appropriate responses, and go on about it. To test the hardware, I don't need to care that the PC can actually accomplish anything with the PCM/BCM...just that the hardware converts VPW messages to USB serial and vice versa. Is it a useful test? For me, yes. For you, no-you are looking to do meaningful communication...which my test setup doesn't try to do. It just tries to get as many VPW messages on the bus translated and interpreted as possible without glitches or mangled frames.

    The big reason for testing this way due to the way Arduino handles inputs and outputs, if you use a digitalRead(IOPIN) function, that takes 4.78uS to read and store the incoming data-so considering that our "short" pulsewidth in VPW 4x mode is 16uS, the processing time is a considerable portion of the short pulsewidth. I needed to make sure that I could reliably decode 4x mode without having the quality decay over time due to processing overhead.

    As I said in my first response to this thread, I'd be glad to help with the hardware development of this project. That's all I'm good for. Since you aren't interested in the hardware, I'll just continue on with my project, and it can either intercept with yours or not-either way, I get out of it what I need, and whether you benefit from it or not is up to you.

    As many people who have tried to get a reflash tool working based around the ELM327 protocol and failed, I never saw a reason to pursue it. It won't be hard to add that functionality to my tool, as it's already an Arduino library and can be added relatively easily.

  12. #42
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    keep at it; i'm so glad someone is working on this.

    if you get it working nobody will give a flying crap what kind of hardware it requires (as long as it isn't too complicated for the average guy to put together).

    you should also consider that most LS1 tuners don't even know what a pull-up resistor or optocoupler is, and will probably do a messy job soldering these PCBs together, making the project hard to spread to the masses. perhaps consider having some chinese electronics manufacturer build 500 of them or something, then sell them for super cheap to support the project (software free, hardware cheap). it would be pretty easy to do.

  13. #43
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    The libraries are where your slowing your self down. Switch to using tabs and write the libraries directly into your sketch, the compiler will optimize them better then as a library.

    void reader_init() {
    // For reader:
    // PC5 input, pull-up
    bit_RX = digitalPinToBitMask(input_pin);
    port_RX = digitalPinToPort(input_pin);
    if (port_RX == NOT_A_PIN)
    { Serial.println("BAD input PIN");
    return;
    }
    Serial.println("Hi");
    direction_RX = portModeRegister(port_RX);
    out_RX = portOutputRegister(port_RX);
    in_RX = portInputRegister(port_RX);
    *out_RX |= bit_RX;
    // enable pin change interrupt PCINT#
    if(digitalPinToPCICR(input_pin)==0)
    {
    Serial.println("not interupt pin");
    return;
    }
    *digitalPinToPCICR(input_pin) |= (1<<digitalPinToPCICRbit(input_pin));
    *digitalPinToPCMSK(input_pin) |= (1<<digitalPinToPCMSKbit(input_pin));


    reader_pin_last = *in_RX & bit_RX; // read pin state


    // Timer1 setup CLK/64
    OCR1A = 0x61A7; // will campare value of OCR1A against timer 1 for timeout
    TCCR1B = (1<<CS11) | (1<<CS10); //CLK/64
    TCCR1A =0;
    TCCR1C =0;
    // Timer1 enable Output Compare 1 match interrupt
    TIMSK1 |= (1<<OCIE1A); // if OCR1A matches timer interupt will happen
    // notes:
    // 100,000us = 0x61A7 (CTC timer max)
    // 64us = 15 (small bit period)
    // 128us = 29 (large bit period)
    // 200us = 46 (Start Of Frame period)
    // 768us = 177 (Break period)
    }
    Maybe this will give you a better idea of what we are doing.

    When you say Elm327, perhaps you should clarify. DO you mean the Elm chip specifically or a device using the Elm command set? I personally have read a bin file out with an Elm327 over Bluetooth. I've written the Vin, Serial,Bcc,Os Id and a bunch of other parameters using an Elm "Type" device.

    And from someone who has a done a bit more then I have....

    Quote Originally Posted by antus
    I can get it doing 180 byte packets and 4x now with firmware mods. Will work with you on this project. I have working write on the avt now but im not happy with the code and am time poor. This packet size is a bit small but its enough and can be improved further.
    The issue wasn't that the Elm couldn't do it, it was how fast it could do it. Like I said you can go all the way down to 1 byte to do this with it's just a matter of speed. Some... if not all of the most knowledgeable people that have every worked with this stuff have/are contributing to what we are doing either by providing past work they have done or assisting with our current work.


    Now if you would like to assist with hardware I'd be happy to talk to you again, but we are already a long ways into this and are not likely to "Jump Ship" on any thing we currently have. It's taken us a long time to get to this point and have had to prove our work/intentions to an awful lot of people to get the assistance we now have.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveo View Post
    keep at it; i'm so glad someone is working on this.

    if you get it working nobody will give a flying crap what kind of hardware it requires (as long as it isn't too complicated for the average guy to put together).

    you should also consider that most LS1 tuners don't even know what a pull-up resistor or optocoupler is, and will probably do a messy job soldering these PCBs together, making the project hard to spread to the masses. perhaps consider having some chinese electronics manufacturer build 500 of them or something, then sell them for super cheap to support the project (software free, hardware cheap). it would be pretty easy to do.
    Really trying to stay away from any type of "Hardware" sales, any time you bring money into a project like this it always goes amuck. Now finding an existing company that's trust worthy to build/sell and ship could be a possibility. I would expect this to end up with several avenues for use letting people decided "How" they want to use it and what they are willing to invest to do it.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteS View Post
    The libraries are where your slowing your self down. Switch to using tabs and write the libraries directly into your sketch, the compiler will optimize them better then as a library.
    In Arduino, library usage itself imparts zero penalties, it's all tied together during linking. Using functions like digitalRead/digitalWrite incurs penalties because they do a lot more than just reads and writes, thus using direct port control speeds up the reads/writes by between 27 and 30 times. It's just more difficult to get the library to be portable that way, because you have to define the pins by hardware addressing, not the arduino's much more convenient methods. So, right now the library (what's written of it so far) would work on an Uno, micro, mega, Teensy, etc...all you would need to do is buy an Uno and then stick the VPW level shifter on it, and boom, you've got a cable. Easy to make a "OBD-2 shield" that speaks ELM, AVT, direct binary, whatever you want it to talk on the PC side of things, but the issue is that it's borderline capable of doing 4x mode on the Uno, unless I write the library in such a way that it changes the library for the target device (which can be done, but I've never done it)

    Using 180 byte packets and 4x mode, it takes a maximum time of 6660 uS per packet, and a minimum time of 3780 uS per packet. That's an average packet time of 5220 uS per 180 bytes. A full 512K flash would take 2845 packets, for an average time of 119 seconds to transfer the data. At 1x mode, that's still just under 8 minutes to do the data transfer across the VPW bus. How much time is lost in the turnaround on the ECU side, do you know?

    I'm not asking anyone to "jump ship" on hardware. You started out this thread by saying you were using arduino for the hardware, and that it took a very long time to do it. I have some experience with using the arduino to do VPW, and had the intention of helping you speed your arduino hardware up, as well as make it more flexible-but now you seem to be using Scantool.net stuff, so it seems irrelevant. You mentioned using Dimented24x7's tools, which use the AVT protocol, and it's what I use now-so I was excited that you were essentially finishing his project where he left off. Now it seems that you're committed to the ELM327 protocol, which is fine-but it isn't what any of the other working tools out there have used, and I would add support to my hardware for it *if* it was what you were planning on using. You seem rather non-committal on what hardware you plan to use, maybe all the project members are using different hardware, no one but the project members know.

    Whatever you come up with, will probably work, and it'll be whatever it is. For me, I'm happy using the tools already available for the 512k PCMs, I'll just have to wait till 1Mb support comes around.
    Last edited by Xnke; 03-01-2018 at 03:55 AM.

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