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Thread: Best BIN for runing 1.5 L 4 cylinder

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected!
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    Best BIN for runing 1.5 L 4 cylinder

    I have been working on an MG Midget (Don't Laugh ) that I have installed TBI from 1991 S-10 2.5 VIN A $94,ASWY calibration. I have IAC,and VSS included in the setup. These engines never ran good and I know when this calibration is correct it will run great (And also some guys bet me I couldn't do it). The engine is rebuilt because I didn't want to chase a proper calibration without a good base. The engine is running and I have adjusted to get a good cold start and idle. The engine likes 13-13.5 AFR for a nice idle. I have the ecm also controlling the cooling fan. I have not figured out data logging yet with TPro. I have Moats autoprom and innovate LM2 WB. Have both NB and WB in the exhaust.

    I noticed the 747 with $42 can run a 4 cylinder TBI and has the ability to disable CL at idle and that will cure the idle quality problem. Also the $42 has allot more tuning information and tools available for the VE.
    Another option is adding the NVRAM to my 165 ECM for the self tune capability.

    Any thoughts about these options would be great.

  2. #2
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    Howdy! Congrats on getting to this point. My very first efi retrofit was done for the exact same reason. Before I knew it I was so committed to the project I couldn't turn back. But one of the problems with asking questions like this on a good tech forum is they might try to redesign your system. :)

    So, with that in mind, I'm going to start by suggesting some changes. The throttle body you're using probably seems small, but within it's family it's actually large. If you can locate a throttle body from a Pontiac 2.0 tbi or even a 1988 Lemans Aerocoupe TBI you'll get an even smaller diameter throttle bore. And with TBI, especially on an older engine, you'll help driveability if you can keep intake air velocity higher.

    Next consideration is the injector. At 59 lb/hr, the 2.5 injector, like the TB it's mounted in, might be a bit large for the engine. You need to be careful that the minimum commanded injector on time is not smaller than what the injector is capable of performing and with the low pressure of TBI you don't have the option of reducing pressure to compensate for too large an injector. The 2.0 Pontiac TB mentioned above originally came with a slightly smaller injector at 56 lbs/hr. The Aerocoupe mentioned above had a 1.6 liter engine and was equipped with a 42 lb injector which seems a better choice. My preference though would be to select an injector from either a 1991-1994 Saturn with TBI 1.9 or a 95-96 G van with 454 TBI. Both of these injectors flow almost the same amount of fuel (58lbs/hr) at almost the same fuel pressure (30.5 and and 29 psi respectively). Turning fuel pressure down to 20 psi reduces fuel delivery to about 43 lbs/hr and the higher pressure will tend to provide better atomization for better overall engine performance. However you might need a different fuel pump to run pressure above standard TBI level.

    With that said, the 165 ecm has a huge advantage over the 7747 in terms of ALDL data speed. Tuning the older 7747 often requires the use of external tools as the ALDL data is so slow to update. If you were designing from stage one you could select the 7727 / 7730 ecm and use a calibration from a 91-92 Lumina 2.5 TBI to get an even later generation of ecm but since the 165 is in place I'd probably stick with that.

    As far as the best .bin goes, there probably aren't a lot of options. If you reduce fuel delivery through injector change you might find the stock 2.5 calibration is a better match than with the current injector. But you're still likely to need a fair amount of tuning. I would be surprised if you're going to need open loop at idle but it can be effected in $94 either through modification of existing variables or through some code changes. If you can get the distributor curves for the MG that might give you a guideline for a spark table for the old engine but in the enfd you'll find the ecm can give a much more tailored curve than the old vacuum + mechanical advance systems.

    Good luck. When this is done you'll show those guys a thing or two!

  3. #3
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    this build sounds familiar.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  4. #4
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    Cool project would like to see some pictures when you have time.

    When you say you have IAC and VSS... you also have MAP, CTS, TPS and obviously O2 sensors as well correct?

    You've got some great tuning equipment and will be able to do all you need with it. I'm sure there's a work around for open loop idle there somewhere. May be able to play with stoich setting and possibly O2 swing points if that engine will really not run 14.7 to 1 AFR. Could be timing setting as well. Have to disconnect timing wire and set to 0 on most is stock, but modified engines sometimes like more! But in your bin file is Initial Base timing and that has to match where you set your distributor.

    What did you do for timing control on that engine?

    I just looked at a different XDF file I had which was bigger then one posted in $94 1227165 section and added it along with an ADX that I added some dash boards, monitors and item lists to get you going on recording data to TunerPro with your AutoProm. When you open the dashboards and monitors just right click on them and choose what you want there. Look for $94-1227165-V1 xdf and adx here:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-94

    1project2many has some good advice and I tend to listen when he says something. But for now you may want to look for the Injector size BPW spreadsheet and do some calculations with injector size, Cubic Inch and pressure and come up with a new BPW/BPC to start the tune with. Then when recording data in closed loop you can use BLM to adjust fuel. Or adjust fuel via the wide band to get your fueling in order. It is a good idea to use factory timing settings for a conversion engine to start but the ECM has lots of other things that play with total advance at engine, so have to learn your system. You'll find a lot of calculators and spreadsheets here. Ones I use are close to end...
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...re-math-needed

    Hope that helps get you going, let us know what/where you need help?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  5. #5
    Vintage Methane Ejector
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    Cool Project!

    What year is you Midget? I used to own a 1969, but had to sell it years ago.

  6. #6
    Fuel Injected!
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    Thanks to all.
    I have an adapter to replace the variable venturi with a fuel injector so the original carb becomes a throttle body. I had closed throttle VEs in the 30s with 12 psi fp to get 14.7. I did not change the bpw constant setting of 134. The idle at 14.7 wasn't perfectly smooth like it was at 13:1. I played allot with timing to try for smoother idle at 14:7. I ran smoke machine to look for vac leaks.
    I modified the gm dist to work and use 5 deg. timing that is in the scaler. Also using GM alt.
    I will continue with this setup knowing you guys can lead me through OL idle. I will look at the XDF and ADX.
    So I need to increase the fuel pressure closer to 20?
    Will post pictures soon
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    I'd have to say that is the first time I have seen that done with an injector in a conversion! You'll be great around here as we try to think outside the box when possible.

    Gotta have a TPS! And MAP!

    1project2many was saying a differant injector with differant pressure, not the one you have.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  8. #8
    Fuel Injected!
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    The MG is 1978. I like the older chrome bumper cars better but this car came along and it's hard to find rust free original cars in northwest Ohio.
    I know this looks like a mess under the hood oops no hood.mg pic 019.jpgmg pic 011.jpg

  9. #9
    Fuel Injected!
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    I have the TPS and Map. I can't take credit for the TPS bracket and injector adapter. They came from Patton Machine.

  10. #10
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    Even OE engines often require some "fiddling" to make them run well at idle in closed loop. Cam specs can play a big part in this. If you're going to go open loop, and you don't have a cat, you can go open loop "everywhere."

    I didn't say turn the fuel pressure up to 20 psi. I said using the 454 injector and adjusting pressure to 20 psi gives about 43 lbs per hour of fuel delivery. If you increase pressure in your current injector to 20 psi you'll increase flow by 24%.

    Watching VE is only one step to ensuring the injectors will work. You need to look at the minimum IPW value in the calibration then watch to see if the commanded IPW on the ALDL is matching that value. If so then there's a good chance the injector is too big.

    Mark, his injector constant would have to be reduced by almost 60%. That's a big adjustment.

  11. #11
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    Mark, his injector constant would have to be reduced by almost 60%. That's a big adjustment.
    I didn't do the math but yeah that's pretty big. Glad I did cover my butt and said when 1project2many says something I listen... In the end correct injector size, correct fuel pressure, correct CID in calculater will give correct BPC to start tuning.

    here's a list of TBI injectors, note some 4.3L came with 2 differant size injectors and I don't know the size of them when differant.
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...d-part-numbers

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  12. #12
    Fuel Injected!
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    I will replace the injector. Darn that was a new Delphi.
    Should I buy the LeMans 1.6 injector? I know you mentioned several different ones.
    I don't recall a minimum IPW in the calibration. What am I missing?
    I prefer CL and a cat. The cat most likely won't happen.

  13. #13
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    I think 1project2many was giving examples on single barrel injector sizes because his pounds per hour are way off what we have in the injector specs which are all 2 barrel?
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...d-part-numbers

    2.8L and 3.1L are two barrel and have 33lb injector which might be closer to what your looking for and easier to find at JY, then service it for under $20 and your way cheaper then a new one, but from what he was saying closer to 59lb so one injector from a 5.7L 2 barrel is 61lb or 5.0L 50 pound...

    I don't know your bore and stroke but was playing with the injector sizing BPW spreadsheet and looks like the 33lb at 14psi gives a BPW/BPC/IPW of 137 which is real close to stock BPW of these ECM.
    Attached Files Attached Files

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Some of these pictures make me almost want to put a carb intake back on my 240Z, and run some modified flat top carbs I just got today.... almost.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected!
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    I looked at the 2.8 and 3.1 injectors and they are the big size injector that will not fit my adapter. The LeMans injector might be the best choice. I think what I need is a 700 series injector to fit the adapter.
    When I change the BPC what are the other required changes? BPC vs Vacuum, etc?
    The bore is 2.9 and stroke is 3.44. Almost the stroke of a 350. I have heard these were tractor engines before they were MG engines.

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