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Thread: Swap: 5.7 TBI -> Vortec heads EFI -> 0411 pcm with roadrunner from moates.net-HELP!!!

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    Swap: 5.7 TBI -> Vortec heads EFI -> 0411 pcm with roadrunner from moates.net-HELP!!!

    Hello everyone,

    Well, i have a 1990 k1500 5.7 Silverado stepside 2-door 4wd.

    I have rebuild the engine, installed KB 0.25 forged pistons, comp cam 08-467-8, 1998 tahoe cylinder heads with manifold and all upper parts, AC DELCO 217-3029 89060440 spider injector kit.

    And runned in to alot of problems, programming the blackbox pcm for my setup, basically becouse i left the 4R700 gearbox, had to run a manual gearbox tune, that does not regulate the idle when in D position. Anyway, changing the tune is a pain in the ....

    At different forums, as well here, i was adviced to have a look at moaets.net roadrunner and 0411 swap, becouse with it, i would be able to change my tune in real time.

    I have bought 0411 from moates.net, bought an 4L65E used transmission, and was getting ready to install all that and make the final swap, just had the last bit, is buying a software to flash in and tune the 0411 PCM, since it comes without tune. So i chose the EFI Live software, that costs 250$ per single vin licence. And contacted moates.net, to make sure i cose the correct user friendly software and will be able to start my swap. So yes, EFI Live was the right choice, but i was recomended to get the EFI Live v2 cable, that costs 900$.

    So my questions are:

    1. Is someone here using roadrunner with 0411 PCM with EFI Live software?
    2. Are you as well using EFI Live v2 cable, and what for?
    3. Can i flash tune to roadrunner via usb cable comming out of the 0411 PCM i recieved from moates.net with roadrunner preinstalled and usb cable out of pcm?
    4. Can in realtime make changes to the tune via that cable?
    5. At moates.net, i was adviced to get EFILive FlashScan V2 cable to integrate the datalogging and emulation, that makes me confused, does that mean i can not load a tune without this flash tool and cannot use real time emulation?, than what is the usb cable for, that is sticking out of the 0411 PCM and is connected to roadrunner, that sits in pcm insead of the original chip.

    I'm confused, please, could someone explain!
    I mean, i will be very disapointed if it's all that way, and extra 900$ to spend, i mean if i have to, i will, since i am already involved myself into all that, but it is really not clear for me...

    Thank you in advance!

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    Ok, since no one is answearing, the main question, what do i need the usb cable for, thats coming out of my 0411 PCM with Roadrunner in it, i did some web search, and found only one article about moates.net and its roadrunner product, explaining it more or less precise. Here it is: http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...es-roadrunner/

    And as i understood the info from it, it is all this way.:
    If you have an odb ll programmer, like EFI Live, with it you can flash and change tunes whith your vehicle non working, and than start your car and check the result. If you get roadrunner installed instead of your chip, you will be able to change the tune while car is running, and see the result straight away. But you still need the programmer.

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    Hi Aksl.
    Not very many people have the 0411/Roadrunner setup. Your questions may be answered better by posting them on the EFILive forum. There is a subsection devoted to the Roadrunner. Sorry I can't be any more help than that.

    Jeff
    98 GMC RCSB, 5.0, 4L80e, Moser M60, 4.10 gear, Homemade twin turbo w/Junkyard T3 turbos, 24x CNP, 12200411 PCM.

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    Hi Jeff,

    Thank you for your advice, i sure will direct my question there, i runned in to EFILive forum, but just didn't have it in mind, and sure did not know, they have some subsection directed to 0411/Roadrunner setup.

    Thanks alot!

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    Ow, and by the way, thank you very much for sending me the file, with wiring set up for the swap of blackbox to 0411 PCM. I realy appreciate it!!

    Thank you very much! :) ��

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    I use my Roadrunner PCM with TunerCat, not EFI Live, but the answer is the still the same.

    The Roadrunner PCM no longer has flash memory - the Roadrunner emulator module replaces it internal to the PCM.
    The USB cable exiting the 411 PCM is used to program the Roadrunner emulator PCB - no additional programming
    hardware is required. When you buy the realtime option for either EFILive or TunerCat, it gives you the ability
    to write directly to the Roadrunner PCM through the USB port, both to do a full program, as well as for making
    changes in realtime.

    At some point, you may want to remove the Roadrunner PCM from this project vehicle and use it in another
    project. When that happens, you will then need a means to flash a standard 411 PCM with the file you will
    have developed using the Roadrunner. This is where the EFI Live programming cable comes in - it will allow
    you to flash program a stock 12200411 PCM.

    -Scott
    Last edited by ScottP; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:57 AM.

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    Hello Scott,

    Thank you very much for commenting, and saving me a fortune on the v2 flash scan. I am building this vehicle for my personal use, and I will not be using roadrunner for commercial usage, just for my vehicle and my self. So thank you very much for making it clear for me. I will be using EFI Live software, becouse it seems to be more friendly for user. I will still have to learn it, becouse i never used it, but as i know TunerCat iss much more complex to use, is that true by your opinion, regarding thet you are using TunerCat, and you are used to it?

    Well and plus to all, EFI Live license are cheapper than same license for TunerCat...

  8. #8
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    I guess it all depends upon what you started out with. I started using Tunercat nearly 20 years ago, so for me its perfectly intuitive.
    I also bought the OBD2 software the moment it was available, so I don't deal with any licensing nonsense. I can program any PCM
    I want any time I want. The downside is that there really isn't any scantool software available for the Tunercat interface cable (at
    least none that I'm aware of - someone correct me if I'm wrong here). I also own and use HPTuners, so I rely on that for scanning/
    datalogging.

    The advantage of EFILive over Tunercat is that its a better integrated package. All of the scanning/editing/flashing utilities are nicely
    integrated into one package and one basic user interface. The same can be said of HPTuners, but they don't support the Roadrunner.

    -Scott

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    Thank you for sharing Scott!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aksl View Post
    Hello Scott,

    Thank you very much for commenting, and saving me a fortune on the v2 flash scan. I am building this vehicle for my personal use, and I will not be using roadrunner for commercial usage, just for my vehicle and my self. So thank you very much for making it clear for me. I will be using EFI Live software, becouse it seems to be more friendly for user. I will still have to learn it, becouse i never used it, but as i know TunerCat iss much more complex to use, is that true by your opinion, regarding thet you are using TunerCat, and you are used to it?

    Well and plus to all, EFI Live license are cheapper than same license for TunerCat...
    Tunercat Vehicle Definition Files(VDFs) are not VIN locked, so if you got a VDF for the 1996-97 Vortec trucks, for $79.95 you could literally tune every single 96-97 truck in existence. With EFILive you'd have to pay $125 per vehicle. TC2 licensing is much less expensive for anyone that is tuning and flashing to the vehicles ECM/PCM/VCM.

    Heres the TCII VDF (license) list.
    OBD2_07
    1996 - 97 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L, 7.4L)

    OBD2_06
    1998 - 00 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L, 7.4L)

    OBD2_02
    1999 - 00 LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)

    OBD2_19
    1999 - 00 Medium Duty Trucks (7.4L MFI Gas)

    OBD2_03
    2001 - 02 LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)

    OBD2_04
    2003 - 05 LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)

    OBD2_14
    2006 - 07* LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L, 8.1L)
    (*only 2007 trucks with old style PCM are supported)

    OBD2_29
    2002 - 05 L6 4.2L Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada

    OBD2_50
    2007 - 08 V8 Trucks & SUVs (CAN Bus E38 ECM)

    OBD2_51
    2009 - 15 V8 Trucks & SUVs (CAN Bus E38 ECM except L96 6.0L Heavy Duty Trucks)


    OBD2_52
    2007 - 14 V6 4.3L Trucks & SUVs (CAN Bus E37 ECM)
    2007 - 2011 HHR 2.2, 2.4L
    2008 - 2010 Saturn Vue 2.4L

    OBD2_59
    2008 – 2009 Cadillac SRX 4.6L
    2008 – 2012 Chevy Colorado 2.9L, 3.7L and 5.3L
    2007 – 2009 Chevy Trailblazer, SS 4.2L, 5.3L and 6.0L
    2008 – 2012 GMC Canyon 2.9L, 3.7L and 5.3L
    2007 – 2009 GMC Envoy 4.2L, 5.3L
    2008 – 2010 Hummer H3, H3T 3.7L and 5.3L
    2006 – 2007 HHR 2.4L
    2007 – 2009 Uplander
    2008 Saturn Vue
    2008 Acadia 3.6L

    OBD2_40
    2014 - 17 V8 Trucks & SUVs (CAN Bus E92 ECM)
    (not including heavy duty trucks with L96 6.0L)



    OBD2_42
    2011 - 17 Heavy-duty Trucks with L96 6.0L engine (CAN Bus E78 ECM)

    V8 Cars
    OBD2_08
    1996 - 97 LT1 Corvette, Camaro, Firebird, Impala

    OBD2_09 1997 - 98 LS1 Corvette, Camaro, Firebird

    OBD2_01
    1999 - 01 LS1 Corvette, Camaro, Firebird
    1999 - 2001 Holden

    OBD2_05
    2002 - 03 LS1 Corvette, Camaro, Firebird

    OBD2_20
    2002 - 2004 Holden

    OBD2_10
    2004 LS1 Corvette

    OBD2_12 2004 GTO

    OBD2_13 2004 - 05 Cadillac CTS-V


    OBD2_53
    2010 - 2015 Camaro V8

    2009 - 2013 Corvette (except 2011 ZR1)

    2011 - 2014 Caprice 6.0L

    2014 - 2015 Chevy SS

    OBD2_55
    2006 - 2008 Corvette

    2006 - 2007 Holden

    OBD2_57
    2006 – 2009 Cadillac DTS, STS and XLR with the

    4.4L S.C. and the 4.6L engines

    2006 – 2009 Cadillac CTS-V

    2006 Cadillac STS

    2007 – 2009 Chevy Impala 5.3L

    2006 Chevy Malibu 3.9L

    2008 Chevy Malibu 3.6L

    2007 Chevy Monte Carlo SS 5.3L

    2009 Chevy Corvette ZR1

    2007 – 2009 Buick Lucerne 4.6L

    2008 – 2009 Buick Lacrosse 5.3L

    2007 – 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix 5.3L

    2006 Pontiac G6

    2007 Saab 5.3L

    2009 Saab 6.0L

    GMPP E67 Calibrations
    OBD2_58
    2010 – 2011 Cadillac DTS 4.6L

    2010 Cadillac STS 4.6L

    2010 – 2015 Cadillac CTS-V

    2010 – 2013 Chevy Corvette ZR1

    2012 – 2014 Camaro ZL1

    2010 – 2012 Chevy Malibu 3.6L

    2010 – 2011 Buick Lucerne 4.6L

    OBD2_41
    2014 – 2017 Corvette

    2016 – 2017 Camaro LT1

    2016 – 2017 Cadillac CTS-V

    2014 – 2017 Cadillac CTS 3.6L Turbo

    2017 Cadillac XTS 3.6L Turbo


    Plus a bunch of V6 & 4 Cyl. Cars that I have left out of this post.

    Transmissions
    OBD2_60 2007 - 2015 T42 Transmission Controller - 4 speed Automatic
    OBD2_61 2007 - 2017 T43 Transmission Controller - 6 speed Automatic


    Tunercat was designed for people with experience, that know the lingo and how certain changes will affect the vehicle, while EFILive "holds your hand" a little more. The main advantage of EFILive over TC2 is that it has the scanning/logging functions whereas TC2 doesn't. Since you wont be having any of these functions the difference between the 2 systems grows much smaller. You will be changing values pretty much in the blind. Stripped down to simple calibration editing like EFILive will be in the manner in which you will be using it, some might say that Tunercat is easier to use. The big advantage for you to begin tuning on your own is that Roadrunner. If you change a shiftpoint, you'll be able to test it immediately, no waiting to flash the PCM. Lean out the PE mode fueling and bang, you can test the results immediately. If I did just those two changes, edit the shiftpoint, save, flash to PCM, test drive, edit PE fueling, save flash to PCM, testdrive heck there's a 1/2 hour easy. With the Roadrunner, the actual testing is the lengthy step.

    Tunercat only allows you to make changes to a calibration and uses WinFlash to upload/download calibrations to the PCM/ECM/VCM. EFILive has the scanning/logging function(if you buy the whole V9 system for $900 plus $125 a vehicle) whereas TC2 is for editing and its
    WinFlash program is for flashing the calibrations into the controller.


    But since you have a PCM with a Roadrunner "emulator" installed and you plan to run the truck the entire time, you wont need some of the products.

    In addition to a PCM with the Roadrunner installed, you will need.
    RoadRunner Realtime License $249 from EFIlive
    This license allows unlimited tuning of ANY vehicle supported by your RoadRunner PCM emulator while the RoadRunner PCM emulator is fitted to that vehicle. Each Roadrunner license is locked to each specific Roadrunner Serial Number hardware.
    At this point, you wont be able to do any scanning/logging or flashing of a PCM. In essence, you are limited to pretty much what Tunercat 2 does(as it doesn't have scanning/logging support, but flashing is done via WinFlash for TC2)
    http://www.efilive.com/roadrunner-realtime-license

    Upgrading Tunercats 2 software to R/T(RealTime) with the OBDII RT Tuner program costs $79.95. This is an upgrade for current OBDII Tuner users to the OBDII RT Tuner program. This is Johns price directly from Tunercat. This same package costs $125 from Moates.
    Tunercat-$79.95
    http://tunercat.com/ (this address wont take you directly to the product, you must select the product once you get to the TC site)
    Moates-$125
    http://www.moates.net/tunercat-obd2t...l?cPath=100_55

    The Roadrunner pre-installed into a PCM case is $599 and is in stock right now at Moates.
    http://www.moates.net/roadrunner-ls1....html?cPath=95

    TunerCat RoadRunner RTTuner with 1 definition file is $225, again $25 less than the EFILive Roadrunner license, and you still
    This is only available for purchase with RoadRunner hardware. It includes TunerCat software with ONE VDF (type of ECM/vehicle). If you are looking for a solution for your vehicle and your RoadRunner, this is all you need.

    You can purchase additional VDF definitions separately if you need to tune additional vehicles types separately.
    You can purchase the WinFLASH software for flashing over the OBD2 port separately.

    Winflash software and cable allows you to flash a PCM with the calibration you have developed with the Roadrunner. It doesn't include the actual TC2 software so you wont be able to edit a calibration WinFlash simply allows you to download or flash calibrations from/to PCMs.
    http://www.moates.net/winflash-tuner...l?cPath=100_55



    #1)The 512kb 2001-2002 L31 Vortec 350 calibration files used in the vans. This uses the stock 4x CKP sensor signal and the stock distributer based ignition, single coil-8 long spark plug wires. The distributer supplies the 1x CaMshaft Position sensor
    ( CMP sensor signal), in addition to distributing the high voltage electricity to each of the 8 plug wires/plugs and also driving the oil pump.

    or

    #2)a calibration file from the 2003 LS1/6 Corvette (as some 2003 Vettes came stock with 0411 PCMs) 5.7 liter file with Coil Near Plug(CNP) ignition(requires an aftermarket 24x crank reluctor and stock OEM 1x camshaft position sensor(CMP sensor signal-from distributer that drives oil pump as well). Since you would not be using the distributer to distribute high voltage electricity to the plug wires/plugs with this option, you can either install the old 9 port flat crab distributer cap on top of the distributer body, or buy an aftermarket EFIConnection cap specifically cast for this purpose, or locate a new/used black plastic cap that was used OEM on the 1998-2001 GEN-VI(GEN-6) Vortec 7400 BBC that used rpo codes L21/VP4. One application is the 1998-2001 Kodiak/Topkick 1998-2001 P21 Workhorse Chassis. When looking for L21 parts, ensure that you are selecting the 454 with the SHORT CNP spark plug wires. Another aid in selecting L21 parts, is knowing that ALL Vortec 7400 L21 engines used Electronic Throttle Control(ETC). When searching at a bone yard or when searching through the drilldown columns on a website. If the Vortec 7400 has the long plug wires and cable throttle is automatically 100% for the 1996-2000 454 used in all the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, and if the Vortec 7400 engine has the short CNP spark plugs and the ETC assembly, you 100% sure know that you are dealing. You can still order the OEM L21 454 part that contains the distributer body, the distributer gear(for steel roller cams) the plastic round part where the distributer shaft begins and where the 1x reluctor wheel sits(where the distributer rotor would sit if this was for a L29 BBC and it is all covered up by a flat topped black plastic cap. In short, this part is a conventional 1996-2000 Vortec V8 distributer, with the distributer rotor not installed, topped off with a flat cap with no ports, instead of the 9 port(1 coil wire and 8 plug wires) flat crab distributer cap. Its sometimes referred to as the Camshaft Position Sensor assembly.

    Another clue to differentiate an L21 from an L29 is that the L21 uses a 512kb PCM with dual 80 pin connectors and the 96-2000 VCM uses 4 30-34 pin connectors along with another small connector. Very easily distinguished.
    Also the:
    1998-2001 GEN 6 Vortec 7400 rpo L21=engine code
    1996-2000 GEN 6 Vortec 7400 rpo L29=engine code

    or

    3) 512kb LS1 5.7 liter Camaro/Firebird(4th GEN F-body)would give you CNP ignition coupled with the conventional non electronic throttles(just like the stock Vortec 305/350 L30/31). This like option #2 requires the aftermarket 24x CKP sensor signal along with the stock OEM 1x CMP sensor signal supplied by the distributer, with a flat distributer cap installed atop it.

    You can also use some of the GMT-800 trucks(GMT-800=1999-2007 trucks) but you have to ensure the 512kb PCM size as most went to the 1Meg PCM by 2004, and ensure the calibration file is either cable throttle or ETC.

    But for right now it appears that you are going with option #1 which will work just great.


    Most people use an emulator like the Roadrunner simply to save time and for some of the benefits of being able to adjust parameters in Real Time. With an emulator you no longer have to make a change, save that change in your tuning software, then connect to the ECM/PCM/VCM and then flashing that calibration. Then if tuning in vehicle, dynoing or driving to test your change. With the emulators, you simply make a change in calibration using your tuning software, then enter it. You'll hear the Roadrunners beep beep and instantly you can test your changes. It speeds up the process much quicker. When I do some Blackbox VCM tuning, after I begin to flash the PCM, I can go outside and have a full cigarette and come back inside and the computer is still flashing the controller. So having an emulator would really speed up my process of making a change the waiting for the flash of the PCM.(it would also really decrease my cigarette smoking lol)

    After you have got your tune where you want it using the Roadrunner, you can create a calibration file and save it to your laptop/PC in the EFILive or Tunercat 2 file format, then remove the Roadrunner hardware from the vehicle, install the appropriate controller(ECM/PCM/VCM) in your case the 0411 box and then flash that 0411 controller with the saved calibration file that you have saved on your laptop/PC. To do this would require extra software for both TC2 and EFILive.

    It's not common to leave the Roadrunner installed as not many people use an emulator for a single project as they are not cheap.

    If you plan to leave the Roadrunner emulator in your truck for the rest of the trucks service life, then you wont need the flashing function of the EFILive software or the Tunercats 2(called WinFlash).

    Because John(the owner of Tunercat) sold the rights to TC2 shortly after bringing TC2 to market, he could no longer sell TC2 directly to the public. In order to buy TC2 software, you must buy the R/T TC2 software along with a Roadrunner purchase, or already be an owner of the Roadrunner setup.

    I know of people who have bought the Roadrunner package just to get the Tunercat 2 software.

    TL;DR In addition to the Roadrunner hardware, you will still need the Roadrunner software from either Tunercat or EFILive and EFIlives advantages go away once you strip it down to a calibration editor like you are doing. I'm also not seeing the EFILive being cheaper, it appears to me that TC2 is less expensive than EFILive when using Roadrunner. Then if flashing controllers, there is no question that Tunercat 2 is less expensive, by far.

    I have no experience with EFILives customer service, but John at Tunercat sends me updates and basic stuff like that, usually within minutes.

    Just one persons experience, mileage may vary.

    peace
    Hog

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    Hello Hog,

    Thank you very much for your wide open reply. You gave alot of helpfull information!, Saying that TC has been designed for more experienced user, well yes, i gues that is why most of people recommend me the EFI Live to start from, and scince i have the RoadRunner already, i can any time purchase the TC in future. Here is a link to a Tuner Cat VS EFI Live forum talk i runned in to recently, it is a rery old one: http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewto...d5319793174c49, where they say that TC cannot relearn the crank, since it an old article, i wonder, can TC nowdays perform the crank relearn operation?

    Unfortunately i can not find a dissent comparison of the two softs, and it is preaty hard to decide which on to choose...
    Last edited by Aksl; 2 Weeks Ago at 10:26 AM.

  12. #12
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    So, i have tryed and made a pavement to moates.net, for license of EFI Live, and got an update on my order, asking me to send them a serial number of my EFI Live scan cable, which guess what, i do not have. And i'm not really wealling to buy it for 900$.

    So guys, i guess i will have to join you, and go with the TunnerCat.
    And i hope you can give me a hand with starup of using TC...
    Last edited by Aksl; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:37 AM.

  13. #13
    Electronic Ignition!
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    Aksl,

    Please understand that TC is an editor and flash utility only. It has no scanning or 2-way control capability at all, so it can
    not do a crank relearn and can not provide you with any datalogging. You will want to make sure that you have some other
    way to log data in order to be able to tune your project.

    -Scott

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    Hello Scott,

    Thank you for precaution, well, i think i can get way cheapper scanner than EFILive cable, plus i figured out, that if i need a scanner, for crank relearn procedure, it is just one time need procedure to make, i can pay the nearest service center for diagnostic service to be made.
    What do you mean by 2-way control capability?
    As well i wonder, since you and #Hog use TC, what do you use for scanning, crank relearn, and 2-way control capability (watever that means)...?

    Thank you in advance!

  15. #15
    Electronic Ignition!
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    The 411 PCM (along with many others as well) support commands from the scantool to the PCM. A crank relearn
    is an example of one of these commands (also sometimes called 2-way controls). Others that are supported by
    EFILive and HPTuners include:

    Turning on and off cooling fans, check engine light, ignition coils and injectors
    Commanding the engine to a fixed idle speed or IAC position
    Commanding the engine to a fixed spark advance or air fuel ratio
    Commanding the transmission to a specific gear or line pressure
    Locking and unlocking the torque converter

    These controls can be very helpful when tuning and troubleshooting a new setup.
    I use HPTuners for this capability, as well as for my primary scantool.

    -Scott

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