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Thread: Starting to Learn on 95 G30 5.7 for Towing

  1. #76
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    Still stuck on the heads. I spoke with Jegs, they started substituting promax import heads for their 514080 vortec heads recently without changing the description online. I got one better head and the other is from promax. The castings are the same, even the same casting number, but the machine work is not exactly the same. I think the castings were always imported, just one supplier cared a little more about parts and machine work. Anyway I think I solved the retainer to guide issue with a new set of springs and retainers. A 20lb increase in spring pressure is not a bad thing anyway. Then I found the spring seat needed cut for the inner spring. Summit sent that cutter by Ontrac, what a joke. They have no local office, you can't call the driver. If your not home they keep the package and try the next day. I have been trying to get the tool for three days, but the van shows up at different times and I have a full time job. Eventually I will get heads on the engine. I did do most of the 409 exhaust last weekend.

  2. #77
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    The heads are on the engine. There have been a few odds and ends I have been fixing as I put the van back together that's been holding things up. The last one was the Tbi rebuild gaskets they made it from LA all the way to Oregon in one day, then a postal service worker decides to send it to Texas for a week. Its now due back in Oregon on Monday. I bought a few cheap 409 stainless lengths from Summit and replaced the entire exhaust. It was welding practice mostly, I need to weld more as they still are not that great. It's not structural though and I used angle cuts for budget. This engine will not see 5000rpm on a regular basis, so it will not be maxing out any pipe diameters. They complete system was done for about $200 including the new ss muffler. I did use a lot of argon though so maybe $250 total. I was able to mill out most of the bad stuff in the front exhaust manifold ports and smoothed the iron with carbide burs.



  3. #78
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    One more thing the later style fuel pressure regulator cover is not as easy to unplug. Its threaded part is just crimped lightly into the outer can with a blob of metal dropped over the screw. I followed the instruction for the early style not thinking there was any difference and the crimp came loose causing the whole assembly to just rotate and wobble. I have an aftermarket Jet cover coming tomorrow.

    VAFPR_2_.jpg

  4. #79
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    After all the hassles, I fired it up today. It's still not completely together, but I wanted to make sure the lifters pumped up and the adjustments where correct before buttoning up the rest. It idles fine, even with the stock chip. Fuel pressure, slight min air rate adjustment were the only changes so far. I didn't mess with any other changes yet as I knew it would run well enough to check the lifters. The exhaust sounds good too.
    Last edited by donf; 12-17-2018 at 06:46 AM. Reason: Spelling

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    After all the hassles, I fired it up today. It's still not completely together, but I wanted to make sure the lifters pumped up and the adjustments where correct before buttoning up the rest. It idles fine, even with the stock chip. Fuel pressure, slight min air rate adjustment where the only changes so far. I didn't mess with any other changes yet as I knew it would run well enough to check the lifters. The exhaust sounds good too.
    On the stock chip that is about all I suspect it will do. Startup and idle well. As soon as you crack the throttle I bet it runs like crap on the stock chip. With Vortec heads I generally have to add ALOT of timing and atleast 50% AE.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    After all the hassles, I fired it up today. It's still not completely together, but I wanted to make sure the lifters pumped up and the adjustments where correct before buttoning up the rest. It idles fine, even with the stock chip. Fuel pressure, slight min air rate adjustment where the only changes so far. I didn't mess with any other changes yet as I knew it would run well enough to check the lifters. The exhaust sounds good too.
    On the stock chip that is about all I suspect it will do. Startup and idle well. As soon as you crack the throttle I bet it runs like crap on the stock chip. With Vortec heads I generally have to add ALOT of timing and atleast 50% AE. For being such a small cam the 395' Marine cam really does sound good. Looking forward to seeing how much of a difference it makes. I am guessing you will put down around 240 hp to the tires if it is tuned well.

  7. #82
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    With the holidays and a new job, not much time for the van, but i did get it back together today and backed it out to run for a few minutes. It idles fine, even on the stock chip, but like I was told once the throttle is opened it starts going lean fast even with 20psi. I am not driving it this way, I have not even driven out of the driveway yet, but figured I would post an update. I was concerned a little about the ramjet cam as a few people said I may have trouble getting it to idle with the 109 lc. At least with the 1995 computer it idles fine even with the stock timing and fuel. I have done some very conservative changes to the chip now, but the fuel tables need to be dialed in better before loading it too much or driving. I ordered a mr gasket 180 high flow thermostat (Robert Shaw Copy) thinking it may be better for towing. I think that will have to be changed out before the van leaves the driveway. Too much trouble keeping it up the temperature in winter weather. As soon as it starts to open the temp drops by 20 degrees fast, so the temp gauge pogos back and forth every 10 minutes or so. It had a super-stat in it before, and it did fine in all weather. Live and learn.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    With the holidays and a new job, not much time for the van, but i did get it back together today and backed it out to run for a few minutes. It idles fine, even on the stock chip, but like I was told once the throttle is opened it starts going lean fast even with 20psi. I am not driving it this way, I have not even driven out of the driveway yet, but figured I would post an update. I was concerned a little about the ramjet cam as a few people said I may have trouble getting it to idle with the 109 lc. At least with the 1995 computer it idles fine even with the stock timing and fuel. I have done some very conservative changes to the chip now, but the fuel tables need to be dialed in better before loading it too much or driving. I ordered a mr gasket 180 high flow thermostat (Robert Shaw Copy) thinking it may be better for towing. I think that will have to be changed out before the van leaves the driveway. Too much trouble keeping it up the temperature in winter weather. As soon as it starts to open the temp drops by 20 degrees fast, so the temp gauge pogos back and forth every 10 minutes or so. It had a super-stat in it before, and it did fine in all weather. Live and learn.
    I always have had good luck with the GM 170*F marine thermostats. Will see if I can find the part number. Should still be a good one.

    Will also send you an Excel file with the VE table and Spark advance tables out of my Vortec with the Ramjet cam. Probably a better starting point than the TBI stuff.
    Last edited by Fast355; 01-03-2019 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #84
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    GM 170*F thermostat without coolant bypass port blocker.
    GM 10220957 or AC Delco 131-84
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-131-84

    FWIW, for anyone running a Vortec engine. The GM 170*F thermostat for it.
    Has the coolant bypass blocker built on the bottom.
    GM 19114467 OR AC Delco 12T19CJ
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...j/applications
    Last edited by Fast355; 01-03-2019 at 12:41 AM.

  10. #85
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice. I just left the 180 mr gasket in there. Most all local parts houses went to Motorad for their supplier. Even Stant is a special order. I did not use the shim head gaskets after all. I just went with a .026 composite as the block had a tiny bit of pitting around the water ports. I know that may have hurt the end result slightly, but after 2 months of messing with crappy import jegs heads, I did not want to do it again for a long time.

    I burned a dyno only chip to lock the converter very early and keep it in third and I put it on the dyno for about 15 minutes yesterday. No extended power runs, mostly just moving the throttle as slowly as possible while cranking up the resistance to see what block learn does. In the lower rpm ranges and the converter locked, I had to crank the eddy brake up a lot to hit some of the cells to lug the engine down enough to hit some of the lower rpm block learn cells at low vacuum, so I am hoping that means a little improvement in trailer towing torque.

    On the dyno chip I did adjust the injector flow rate to account for the increase in fuel pressure, but kept the stock VE tables. The $20 generic fuel pressure spring I got off ebay, will not drop the pressure below 19.5psi even with the adjustable regulator backed all the way off making it rich at idle with the stock fuel table. FYI The ebay spring looks and feels real similar to a pack of springs a friend got from mcmaster carr. https://www.mcmaster.com/9657k521 Some of the cells on the fringes are not accurate. I hit those on decel after wot. Most of the the cells though were hit several times with no sudden throttle movements. I had a mostly stock vortec timing map in there, looking for any knock when lugged, it was fine so I can bump that up a little as suggested too. I did jump on it a few times and the wideband AF ratio on the dyno would lean out just for a fraction of a second (I will fix that) and go straight to 12.5 and hold that with no adjustment to the factory PE time tables. Next I need to read up on out how to do emulation to dial in the fuel and timing tables easier.
    Last edited by donf; 01-07-2019 at 02:23 AM.

  11. #86
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    Has anyone see this in the history pages for the 0D adx? The spark advance logs crazy numbers. It runs fine, block learn is within 10+- of 128 now, but looking at the spark advance sheet makes it hard to believe anything on it. Over 20000 degrees spark advance on some cells. Obviously it would not even run if it were true, but it doesn't look like the other normal numbers are matching the timing table either. The initial timing was changed from 0 to 10, but there is no 20000 spark advance anywhere on the table. I swapped out adx files, incase something was corrupted and it's still the same.
    EDIT:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...ED-sorta/page2 It looks like others have the same problem... I figured I could find an answer here. Didn't expect to find it on the same page though.




    Last edited by donf; 01-07-2019 at 04:11 AM.

  12. #87
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    Setting the altitude spark bias to zero looks like it straightened out the jumble of 20000+ data and gave me a more realistic spark advance table. So the question is, is it a programming error corrupting only the data shown in tunerpro or is it something real in the way the ecm is processing the data? The main input for altitude is the MAP Sensor. I pulled out the factory manual and my memory has been playing tricks on me. The non code map output test is very short and starts with "compare to known good." That worked well when the dealer lot was full of them, 25 years later and the flood of china parts in ac delco boxes, no so hot. This is problem happening so often, I dont think its that isolated.
    Last edited by donf; 01-07-2019 at 05:39 AM.

  13. #88
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    I tried a few things tonight.
    1st I reopened the bin and set altitude bias to back to the 9.8. Then I logged the data in ALDL SCAN Its a cool little program. The 23000 timing advance was back at times. 5 minutes or so of running would produce a crazy number every 30 seconds or so but only when the throttle was snapped.

    So I burned a fixed timing chip. Setting all cells to 9.8 degrees. The initial timing had also been set to 9.8 previously. So I should have fixed timing that never advances. While I was in there I did not turn off the scalar but instead I set the few cells in the altitude spark correction vs baro vs vacuum table to zero. Note most tables were already at zero by default. Something in the change really made the computer mad. It was stuck at the 23000 advance in tunerpro, no longer an intermittent problem. So that was awesome, I took the timing light and looked at what the true timing was. I looked at he timing limits on the bin and its limited to 9 degrees retard and 41 degrees advance so in theory it should not be able to put a 23000 number up. Its at the base timing setting at around 9. Not being crazy at all. Tunerpro sure didn't like it though. Here is the data log. I am thinking its a data interpretation problem that for some reason stops when certain changes are made to the chip rather than something that affects the timing.

    Last edited by donf; 03-02-2019 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Cleaning up my flicker account of misc photos

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    I tried a few things tonight.
    1st I reopened the bin and set altitude bias to back to the 9.8. Then I logged the data in ALDL SCAN Its a cool little program. The 23000 timing advance was back at times. 5 minutes or so of running would produce a crazy number every 30 seconds or so but only when the throttle was snapped. Here is a screen shot.



    So I burned a fixed timing chip. Setting all cells to 9.8 degrees. The initial timing had also been set to 9.8 previously. So I should have fixed timing that never advances. While I was in there I did not turn off the scalar but instead I set the few cells in the altitude spark correction vs baro vs vacuum table to zero. Note most tables were already at zero by default. Something in the change really made the computer mad. It was stuck at the 23000 advance in tunerpro, no longer an intermittent problem. So that was awesome, I took the timing light and looked at what the true timing was. I looked at he timing limits on the bin and its limited to 9 degrees retard and 41 degrees advance so in theory it should not be able to put a 23000 number up. Its at the base timing setting at around 9. Not being crazy at all. Tunerpro sure didn't like it though. Here is the data log. I am thinking its a data interpretation problem that for some reason stops when certain changes are made to the chip rather than something that affects the timing.

    I had the same issue with ScannerPro and TunerPro years ago. TTS Datamaster and my SnapOn redbrick never had those glitches.
    Last edited by Fast355; 01-08-2019 at 06:46 AM.

  15. #90
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    I am going to have to retract what I said a little. Your comment reminded me I had a OTC scan tool and I used that to check. Well there is a retard problem. The OTC reads -9 all the time with the fixed timing bin. So I rechecked the base timing with the spout unpluged and I goofed. I had it over advanced but not by much. So resetting to 10 degrees, clearing the code does show a small retard condition in real time maybe 4-5 degrees from 10 initial. Turning off the scalar for altitude and not touching anything else on the fixed timing bin shows 4 degrees advanced on the OTC scan tool falling to 0 or -2. So something is still not matching, maybe my timing light is dropped too many times. It's a lot easier to believe the OTC scan tool than something that reads 23000 degrees advanced. I hooked up the android and it starts about 5 degrees advanced but then slowly drops to 1 with the scalar turned off in the bin and the initial timing on the chip still set to 9.8. So it looks like the interpreted advance or retard can vary a little on startup between platforms even with a fixed table for timing.
    Last edited by donf; 01-08-2019 at 07:35 AM.

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