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Thread: Starting to Learn on 95 G30 5.7 for Towing

  1. #136
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    So along yesterday's discussion, from the other thread where changing the o2 stoich from 14.7 to another number for E10...
    I started my tune with the setting at 14.2. On the dyno months ago, I ran several passes with it set at 14.2 then ran a few with it set at 14.7 without touching anything else. The haltech wideband logging the showed a slight difference but it was almost not even readable. Run to run variation showed almost as much change and block learn at WOT did not move. So I left it at 14.7 and continued to refine the tables once in a while. Yesterday after the discussion I decided to change the stoich afr to 14.4 and see. I was hoping that it would not mess up the tables. There have been two very noticable changes in the table since the start, once was when I filled up with gas after the first tank. Everything across the board went slightly lean. The second was my doing. I decided I didn't like the richness of the VE table on decel even though I never hit a lot of them over 3600, and copied the first three columns from the stock bin and pasted them in to redo that area.

    Today I was worried that the change from 14.7 to 14.4 would cause the need for big table changes. Again I was surprised with the real results. It did not change a lot. WB02 readings stayed good and the block learn was very good in most cells. I am attaching the worksheet. It's not done there is straggler data where the sample count as very low. I have not weeded that out. It seems that sweating over setting it at 14.2 or 14.4 or 14.7 makes no real drastic change in the VE table, even when the table was dialed in at another setting. The difference between tanks of fuel made a bigger change in the tables.
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    Last edited by donf; 03-11-2019 at 03:48 PM.

  2. #137
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    I wish I had screenshots of the fuel trim maps on my L31 running E10 back in the day before it was ever tuned. The fuel trims were all +8 to +11%. Changed stoich from 14.73 to 14.12 and the fuel trims all went to within +/- 1-2% Made a substantial change in my otherwise stock L31.

  3. #138
    Fuel Injected! donf's Avatar
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    I think it should have made a much bigger difference than it did. My thinking is, maybe the data is mislabeled or misaddressed and we are not changing what we think we are changing? I will leave it at 14.4, either way it seems to make no big difference in the map so far if its changed slightly. I have a brand new A/C Delco sensor

  4. #139
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    I gave the van a real towing test a few months ago. I got called to tow the dyno to a small town in middle Oregon. Only about 80 miles each way but its in old volcano areas. The highway is straight up and down. The engine torque from the upgrades is noticeable it did fine, right where its needed rpm wise too. I went over the truck scales at very close to 10,000 lbs total. The problem was the trans temp. I had to let off on the steepest parts as the temps were going to cook the trans. I had the factory trans cooler as an option. One person told me there is a bypass built in and its a poor design. After many miles the bypass tubes work better than the other tubes and not much cooling gets done. I sourced another cooler from TruCool. They made the original too, but this one is twice as thick and has no bypass so it all has to go through the cooler. B&M Supercoolers are reboxed Tru-Cool coolers. I went with the Tru-cool box since it was less than half price. It was pretty easy. Since the same manufacture one side of the bracket was perfect, the other side needed a square piece of sheet metal. I had to trim the grill a bit from the backside because of the extra thickness. I have not pushed the trans that hard locally but it seems to cool better. There is one area where the factory add on trans cooler line has a necked down area to slide into the main cooler line. I think that may hurt cooling as well. I have not cut that out yet but will if trans temp continues to be a problem.


  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    I gave the van a real towing test a few months ago. I got called to tow the dyno to a small town in middle Oregon. Only about 80 miles each way but its in old volcano areas. The highway is straight up and down. The engine torque from the upgrades is noticeable it did fine, right where its needed rpm wise too. I went over the truck scales at very close to 10,000 lbs total. The problem was the trans temp. I had to let off on the steepest parts as the temps were going to cook the trans. I had the factory trans cooler as an option. One person told me there is a bypass built in and its a poor design. After many miles the bypass tubes work better than the other tubes and not much cooling gets done. I sourced another cooler from TruCool. They made the original too, but this one is twice as thick and has no bypass so it all has to go through the cooler. B&M Supercoolers are reboxed Tru-Cool coolers. I went with the Tru-cool box since it was less than half price. It was pretty easy. Since the same manufacture one side of the bracket was perfect, the other side needed a square piece of sheet metal. I had to trim the grill a bit from the backside because of the extra thickness. I have not pushed the trans that hard locally but it seems to cool better. There is one area where the factory add on trans cooler line has a necked down area to slide into the main cooler line. I think that may hurt cooling as well. I have not cut that out yet but will if trans temp continues to be a problem.

    Where you in 2nd gear when this was happening? Just want to point out you can make the 4L60E lock the converter in 2nd gear like the older 700r4s through the programming.

  6. #141
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    I do have 2nd gear to lock at about 85% or more. When it was getting hot it was in 3rd. So far the rebuilt 4l60e does fine durability wise. I hate the gear spread though, so I am half way looking for a 4l80e core if I can find one being cast off.

  7. #142
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    I messed around with putting the van on the dyno today. Pretty close to the same numbers six months later. If you want dynojet numbers multiply by about 1.10. All runs were with a locked converter and locked in 3rd to eliminate that variable. The ramp rate was slowed down. I wanted to have plenty of time to get a/f readings and the long slow pull is pretty much what happens every time the van hits a hill towing the dyno. The engine is stock, except for the heads, 196 roller cam and a nice ss exhaust.
    181 peak was a base line run, I had a few of these runs all within about a hp.
    178 Peak was when I multiplied the last three rows of timing numbers in the table by 1.05 and re burned the chip. Yes it lost power! Timing is really close to the stock vortec table listed here somewhere. This mirrors what happened last time when a tried to increase timing for WOT runs. I do think there is a little to be had at part throttle still, but I will save that for another day. No knock retard except for one table cell and that was usually less than 1 degree.
    184.5 peak was when I pulled off the air cleaner and ring and let cool to 166. You will see a noticeable jump in the mid range, bigger than the peak numbers. I kept the ring and air filter off for the rest of the tests.
    182.8 and 182.6 peaks runs were run hotter to see if the temp was the reason for the hp jump. Just lost a hp or two for the 10 degree jump in engine temp. The run that started late was just that. The sun was on the screen and I was like oh I can go now. Its not a race car. Most of today's work allowed me to pull a little bit of fuel out of the upper transition areas for even better mileage. The hp runs were just a check and then I had to mess with a few things to see if I can improve. I think the jegs power bowl or what ever they are calling it may have some interest next. It already has a 14x3 summit filter.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post


    I messed around with putting the van on the dyno today. Pretty close to the same numbers six months later. If you want dynojet numbers multiply by about 1.10. All runs were with a locked converter and locked in 3rd to eliminate that variable. The ramp rate was slowed down. I wanted to have plenty of time to get a/f readings and the long slow pull is pretty much what happens every time the van hits a hill towing the dyno. The engine is stock, except for the heads, 196 roller cam and a nice ss exhaust.
    181 peak was a base line run, I had a few of these runs all within about a hp.
    178 Peak was when I multiplied the last three rows of timing numbers in the table by 1.05 and re burned the chip. Yes it lost power! Timing is really close to the stock vortec table listed here somewhere. This mirrors what happened last time when a tried to increase timing for WOT runs. I do think there is a little to be had at part throttle still, but I will save that for another day. No knock retard except for one table cell and that was usually less than 1 degree.
    184.5 peak was when I pulled off the air cleaner and ring and let cool to 166. You will see a noticeable jump in the mid range, bigger than the peak numbers. I kept the ring and air filter off for the rest of the tests.
    182.8 and 182.6 peaks runs were run hotter to see if the temp was the reason for the hp jump. Just lost a hp or two for the 10 degree jump in engine temp. The run that started late was just that. The sun was on the screen and I was like oh I can go now. Its not a race car. Most of today's work allowed me to pull a little bit of fuel out of the upper transition areas for even better mileage. The hp runs were just a check and then I had to mess with a few things to see if I can improve. I think the jegs power bowl or what ever they are calling it may have some interest next. It already has a 14x3 summit filter.
    Good to see you are starting to get somewhere. Torque is finally starting to reach where I feel it should be.

    My guess is the stock manifolds just have a strangle hold on your engine. As I said earlier I made 204 rwhp and right at 300 rwtq with a stock 8.75:1 350 TBI long block with nothing more than long tube headers, bored edelbrock 3704 intake, 1.6 full roller rockers and a 454 TBI unit. I had a Caddy TBI bonnet and built myself a custom 3.5" air intake with a large cone filter down by the passenger front wheel well. I was running a GM 85mm maf at that time with the 7427 computer. That stock head/cam L05 engine pulled 200 rwhp from 3,600 rpm to 4,600 rpm with a peak of 204 at a little over 4,300.

    My 5.7 vortec with the same cam you are running with 1.6 rockers and thorley tri-ys even floating the valves at 4,500 rpm made 229 hp and 304 tq. Swapped the springs and it made 257 rwhp and 310 rwtq. That was with the stock crappy vortec intake with all the spider junk in the way. Also through a 4L80E and 9.5" 14-bolt.

    Both of those engines made peak power at 28-30° of timing at 3,500 rpm and beyond.

    Power bowl should help just open up the air cleaner base to match the opening.

    I really don't understand your peak torque being at 2,700 rpm. My 5.7 Vortec head 395' roller cam with hood LS6 springs made peak torque at 3,200 rpm and that is about where GM rates the marine L31 for peak toque as well. Maybe your cam is sitting in the engine advanced from its normal 106 ICL spec.
    Last edited by Fast355; 07-15-2019 at 06:19 AM.

  9. #144
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    Mine progressively lost power as it heat soaked. First pull was 204 and the 3rd pull 198.

    The Express van took a huge hit after the first pull. 2nd pull was aborted because of an accidental downshift. Clutch fan kicked fully in during the 3rd pull and it always shreeks the drivebelt and screams like a semi. It freaked the dyno operator out and he lifted early. Clutch fan was fully engaged on pull 4 as well. Was interesting to see what having a dyramax fan blade on for maximum cooling did to my performance. Its a great trade off to me. ~10 ft/lbs vs the ability to stay at WOT for miles on end without the temperature gauge even wiggling.
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    Last edited by Fast355; 07-15-2019 at 06:20 AM.

  10. #145
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    I upgraded the dyno fan this year. Its a big one so it keeps things reasonable. Still no match compared to the 10hp fans some people setup, but mine will still run on a 20a circuit. My fan clutch on the van is newer, but for what I am doing I need to get a HD one. I just haven't done it yet as I know it sucks more hp.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    I upgraded the dyno fan this year. Its a big one so it keeps things reasonable. Still no match compared to the 10hp fans some people setup, but mine will still run on a 20a circuit. My fan clutch on the van is newer, but for what I am doing I need to get a HD one. I just haven't done it yet as I know it sucks more hp.
    I would honestly try a Vortec GMT400 11 blade composite tow package fan blade before upgrading the clutch. Those came on like a 98 Tahoe. Those 5 blade steel jobs do not pull nearly as much air even if the clutch is fully engaged.

    AC Delco 1580739

    Your van should have a 19.5" 5-blade steel fan. The 19.5" 11 blade composite fan is a direct bolt in. To me the 11 blade fan is quieter and draws less power most of the time because it cools better with the fan clutch uncoupled and does not require the clutch to engage nearly as often. Given a fan clutch is also a viscous coupling the 11 blade fan spins slower when the clutch is uncoupled which makes it quieter and the blade shape probably also helps. Should be able to find one NEW for under $40. I know RockAuto stocks them. If you pair the blade with a heavy duty clutch it will spin faster when unpaired and generally they fully couple at a lower temperature. I would try the blade before the clutch. It would be great paired with a 170°F thermostat it would probably keep your engine in the 178-182°F range without having to put the power robbing HD clutch on it.
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    Last edited by Fast355; 07-15-2019 at 07:11 AM.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    I really don't understand your peak torque being at 2,700 rpm. My 5.7 Vortec head 395' roller cam with hood LS6 springs made peak torque at 3,200 rpm and that is about where GM rates the marine L31 for peak toque as well. Maybe your cam is sitting in the engine advanced from its normal 106 ICL spec.
    I am being lazy. Its using roller tacho using a math ratio from rpm to roller speed. The real dyno dynamics tach adapter uses a square wave like an injector for rpm or the tach out put for a msd. Since no msd on the van and the injectors do not seem to pulse in relation to rpm, the roller is the easy way. I can use the adapter on the coil negative but its not very clean as its not a square wave pattern. Its possible that I am 100 rpm off. Not 500 though. I am actually very happy to have peak tq at 2700. I mostly use 2000 to 3500 rpm when towing. That is mostly the sweet spot or close to there depending on the tach accuracy.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    I would honestly try a Vortec GMT400 11 blade composite tow package fan blade before upgrading the clutch. Those came on like a 98 Tahoe. Those 5 blade steel jobs do not pull nearly as much air even if the clutch is fully engaged.

    AC Delco 1580739

    Your van should have a 19.5" 5-blade steel fan. The 19.5" 11 blade composite fan is a direct bolt in. To me the 11 blade fan is quieter and draws less power most of the time because it cools better with the fan clutch uncoupled and does not require the clutch to engage nearly as often. Given a fan clutch is also a viscous coupling the 11 blade fan spins slower when the clutch is uncoupled which makes it quieter and the blade shape probably also helps. Should be able to find one NEW for under $40. I know RockAuto stocks them. If you pair the blade with a heavy duty clutch it will spin faster when unpaired and generally they fully couple at a lower temperature. I would try the blade before the clutch. It would be great paired with a 170°F thermostat it would probably keep your engine in the 178-182°F range without having to put the power robbing HD clutch on it.
    I will check out rock auto after measuring the fan. Thank you for the tip.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    I am being lazy. Its using roller tacho using a math ratio from rpm to roller speed. The real dyno dynamics tach adapter uses a square wave like an injector for rpm or the tach out put for a msd. Since no msd on the van and the injectors do not seem to pulse in relation to rpm, the roller is the easy way. I can use the adapter on the coil negative but its not very clean as its not a square wave pattern. Its possible that I am 100 rpm off. Not 500 though. I am actually very happy to have peak tq at 2700. I mostly use 2000 to 3500 rpm when towing. That is mostly the sweet spot or close to there depending on the tach accuracy.
    The white wire off your coil connector that is not connected to anything is a standard 8 cylinder tach output.....Just pointing it out.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by donf View Post
    I will check out rock auto after measuring the fan. Thank you for the tip.
    IIRC those never vans only had one shroud part number for both the 18" and 19.5" HD cooling fans. Even if you have the 18" fan you can measure the shroud and its likely a 21" opening. Would give you 3/4" clearance if your engine mounts are not sagging.

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