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Thread: 4-cylinder Delco ECM that uses flash instead if EEPROM?

  1. #1
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    4-cylinder Delco ECM that uses flash instead if EEPROM?

    Are there any flash-based 4 cylinder ecms available in the US market? I am looking at things similar to the P66 V6 ecm and the $EE LT1 units, but I need to run a N/A 4 cylinder of 2.3l. I was thinking Quad-4 stuff, but flash-based is a requirement-chip burning is just not gonna happen.

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    Yes, and no. There is an EEPROM based ecm used in the 93 and some 94 Cavaliers with 2.2 and manual. Code is simple and not part of the EEPROM. There is also an OBDII flash ecm used in Daewoo cars (it's a Delco that mounts inside the car) but I don't know if its been cracked yet. There's also the 97+ Cavalier / Sunfire 2.4 pcm family which (I believe) is supported by HPTuners.

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    I'm looking for OBD-1/OBD1.5 ECUs that are programmed over the ALDL cable. OBD2 ECU's are simply too expensive to recommend to customers for EFI conversions, and chip burning is an extra cost beyond the initial ECU swap.

    I'm also looking into Nissan and Toyota products, to see if any of those are suitable.

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    Four cylinders didn't get a lot of advancement until they were forced to go OBDII. They were "economy" engines and cost saving strategy seemed to include not upgrading the controller unless necessary.

    The 93 EEPROM ecm is programmed through the ALDL. Another EEPROM version was used in the Geo Storm.

    Some of the OBDII ecm's I listed above seem to be selling inexpensively.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...m&_sacat=33596

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/Daewoo-Nubir...1362181/i.html

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    The issue isn't the cost of the ECM, it's the cost of the tuning solution. *Nobody* wants the initial investment, and for 90% of the conversions OBDII is just not needed.

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    Ahh... Understood.

    Where will you find a flash tool for an OBD1 / 1.5 ecm that is not LT1? What about modified chip ecm's that allow flashing?

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    Not sure if this helps or not but I have seen where someone used a LS1 Pcm to run a 4 cylinder engine. Basically didn't hook up half the cylinders. Just need to get the right crank and cam signals going to it.

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    I will probably see if I can get a disassembly, then I would imagine it's isn't TOooooo far from the 93/94/95 P66 flash protocols. Using the flash computers is so much nicer than chip burning from and end user standpoint. It's pretty much the last holdout of MS1extra at this point, all MS is flash based and real-time tuning.

    You wouldn't have the service number for the 93 flash ecm, do you? Is it 16134847, is it?
    Last edited by Xnke; 03-29-2017 at 03:05 PM.

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    Are you trying to set up off the shelf systems to sell to people to then tune themselves? Is that why EPROM programming is a show stopper?

    As much as I hate to suggest it, it seems that MS1 or MS2 might be a better solution, though initial investment would likely be more than the Delco...

    So you either pay for it all in the ECU or you pay for multiple parts to keep the in the car hardware cost lower.

    The nice thing about using the Delco programming stuff is that you can do multiple ECMs with one equipment investment, just add more EEPROM and maybe chip adapters. Going MS, or other higher initial cost ECU means that you have to pay the same higher price every time.

    For those that are really stingy, EEPROM programming can be done for less than $100, making their own ALDL cable (that has mixed results) and buying an inexpensive programmer (that also has mixed results).
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

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    I will probably see if I can get a disassembly, then I would imagine it's isn't TOooooo far from the 93/94/95 P66 flash protocols.
    I am told it is very similar. I believe the EEPROM Cavalier ecm number is 16134847.

    Too bad there isn't a way to use an emulator then switch to a final program when complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    I will probably see if I can get a disassembly, then I would imagine it's isn't TOooooo far from the 93/94/95 P66 flash protocols. Using the flash computers is so much nicer than chip burning from and end user standpoint. It's pretty much the last holdout of MS1extra at this point, all MS is flash based and real-time tuning.

    You wouldn't have the service number for the 93 flash ecm, do you? Is it 16134847, is it?
    if it's GM and flash, tech tool will flash it, and serial sniffer will get you a lot of insight into building a flash tool.

    if it's similar to P66 or whatever you can't get it going just from disassembly, since it's actually uploading executable code from rom on the tech tool, and executing it in a loop in ram on the ecm (the flash upload routine isn't on the ECM at all)

    i had an lt1 working fairly easily (meaning hundreds of hours of work rather than thousands...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Six_Shooter View Post
    Are you trying to set up off the shelf systems to sell to people to then tune themselves? Is that why EPROM programming is a show stopper?

    As much as I hate to suggest it, it seems that MS1 or MS2 might be a better solution, though initial investment would likely be more than the Delco...
    The problem with MS is to get anything even close to the day-to-day reliability of the delco, you're looking at MS3 pro. I have three MS powered cars-and mine have all be rock-solid reliable. But, when they have a sensor go bad, they don't say so. They just run like shit and people don't look for bad sensors, they look at bad tuning. Also, injector noise/ignition noise is a huge issue with MS, MS1 not so bad, MS2 is AWFUL about it. MS3 isn't much better than MS2, because they use the same extremely flawed method of grounding. (MS1 pretty much brute forces everything and is more noise-immune for it, MS2/3 tends to be more delicate and proper and can't handle it as well.)

    Another big thing the delco has going is the fact that it's got an OBD port, and in some areas, that's a big deal on getting a car registered. For example, a few parts of my state require emissions testing, and they will universally fail an EFI converted car that does not have an OBD port available for them to plug into. It's allowable to do conversions, but you have to document with the state and get a sticker, which just tells them that you've modified it and that it will report as being a different vehicle-as long as it passes the sniffer and it's got an OBD port, they seem to think it's OK to do...as long as you pay them their money for the sticker. Megasquirt/MSD Atomic/Holley EFI all fail for on-road registration in those areas due to the lack of an OBD-compliant interface.

    The problem with doing the PROM based programs is that chip-burning requires a whole new stack of gear, plus learning a whole new software suite, and people can plug them in backwards, bend up pins, leave off the foil stickers and programs slowly corrupt themselves, etc. Flash based systems are single-cable, flash it and drive. I can email updated tunes, it's a simple plug-in and download. I'm mainly just trying to provide an option for my EFI intake manifold setups-Right now, since the MS uses GM sensors, I can easily keep the same manifold and sensor parts in stock and provide an option for the customer.

    It's for an L20B, 2.3L, that makes 150HP and 177ft-lbs right now. He's on 40 DCOE's and has wanted to go EFI for years, but always just debated on megasquirt or Nissan's S13/B13 system, which is also supported by Tunerpro. Calumsult, which used to be the go-to support for those ECUs, seems to have disappeared these days.

    I figure that serial sniffing the old Tunercats Winflash that does $EE and P66 flashes will probably only need slight tweaks to get it doing the Cavvie ECU, too. It's VERY Possible that the flash system is similar to the Australian ECUs, too.
    Last edited by Xnke; 03-29-2017 at 07:39 PM.

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    Looks like the following are the P4-based 4-cylinder EEPROM based units:

    16153597

    16134847

    As far as the flash tool goes, since they're not P6 or P66 units, may be harder than I can handle. I just can't stomach giving HPtuners money after how he did the tuning commuity that helped him get started, or I'd look into a few of the OBDII units to see if they are easy enough to convert.

    Really though, it's the stability of the delco units vs megasquirt that are winning me over. Feed them appropriate input signals, and they just work. No mucking with thousands of settings that SHOULD all be the same, but never are.

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    I just can't stomach giving HPtuners money after how he did the tuning commuity that helped him get started, or I'd look into a few of the OBDII units to see if they are easy enough to convert.
    I also remain disappointed at what happened. And I am frustrated that TC sold their software to JET. It's too bad that we don't have a reasonable solution from the DIY community 21 years after OBDII hit the market.

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