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Thread: 4-cylinder Delco ECM that uses flash instead if EEPROM?

  1. #16
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    It seems that your experience and my experience are vastly different when it comes to the MS. I've had zero noise issues in my MS2 equipped vehicles, and MS3, though I've only briefly run the MS3, just because I haven't had time to get it all set up. The same goes for the MS3Pro that I helped put on a friend's car, it's been rock solid. I find that most problems with MS come from someone not following the directions of what the ECU NEEDS to function correctly or thinking they know better... I do agree that the lack of diagnostics was one thing that really kept me from running MS on anything for a long time, but other than the one time I had an ECM fail, due to water dripping on it, I can't think of an instance where the diagnostics actually helped me. So while I still think it's a good idea it's not a paramount concern of mine anymore.

    I do agree about the reliability of the Delco being great. Other than the one failure that I've already mentioned I've never had another fail after the install is finished. I did have a couple 1227747s die on a friend's conversion way way back, when he didn't realize that the ECM had to be isolated from the chassis ground. Though those ECMs may not have actually died, but just not run right because of the ground loop. I don't recall all of the details now, but I do recall that the ECM had to isolated in the end.

    I just don't see a Delco that will be easily converted AND cheap to tune by flashing. LT1 PCMs are the only ones that come to mind that kinda fall into what you want, not OBD2, flashable, and likely to run a 4 cyl. But you'll end up spending more time tutoring people on how to use the flash utility from Tuner Cat than it would be worth IMO. I do hear you about people not knowing how to install an EEPROM, but this is where people need to take responsibility for their own actions and pay attention. If you make something fool proof, someone will just make a better idiot. This is where for some people I just give them the bare essentials, and let them figure out the rest, because I don't want to be responsible for them not paying attention and then blame me. But I'm getting cynical again about people, since the more people I meet anymore seem to only be out for themselves, and step on anyone they can to get it.

    The way I see it, this falls into the choose any 2 of 3 categories, Cheap, easy to tune, flashable, all 3 just doesn't seem like it's going to be an easy thing to find in the Delco world.

    Have you looked at Dynamic EFI's EBL? This is a flash conversion for certain Delco ECMs, but it's not exactly cheap.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  2. #17
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    Yeah, that's the thing with MS and noise problems. You'll never see them until they hit a certain threshold, then they cause so many problems it's almost not worth fixing. Worst part, 80% of the noise is INTERNAL to the MS! This is my experiance across about 40 MS installs, some of which I installed, but most of which were brought to me to fix after the owner tried to install it and did not follow the directions. MS1 and MS1Extra seem extraordinarily noise resistant, as in I can get significant noise spikes on all the incoming sensor lines and as long as I keep the microcontroller power lines clean, they don't seem to mind...but if the noise gets into the microcontroller's power lines, it'll corrupt the firmware *often*.

    Pull up an operating MS2 or MS2 extra, and watch your TPS and MAP tracing-especially TPSdot and MAPdot. They will show spikey, errratic behaviour...but the spikes won't be big! 1 or 2 units at most. The problem is that with the TPSDot and MAPdot enrichment, you can't tune the spikes out-they just skew the enrichment. Same spikes show up in coolant temp, IAT, and MAP too...but they are averaged out really effectively so they don't cause major problems.

    Best part? You won't see the spikes if you're running High-Z injectors or a resistor box with Low-Z injectors. The issues are mainly caused by using Low-Z injectors, direct coil control instead of logic-level coil control, and direct solenoid control. (like PWM idle control valves.) The way the power grounds and logic grounds are all tied together and are all run parallel to each other instead of perpendicular means all that high-current switching noise gets capacitively coupled and inductively coupled into the logic grounds and sensor input lines. It's poor PCB design-and even though people have been trying to point this out for nearly a decade, the PCB's haven't been updated to remove this problem.

    Even worse, you see MS units with hacked and taped harnesses, poorly grounded harnesses, multiple grounding points, etc to combine with all the internal noise-if the harness is less than perfect it's an uphill battle until you correct it.

    As to the cheap, easy to tune, Flashable ECM, the LT1/P66V6 ECMs seem to easily fit that bill for 8 and 6 cylinder applications-and there is a cylinder count function in the P66V6 stuff. Only issue is so far they do not support the 2/3 bar MAP sensors yet. I am *probably* going to try and set up the P66V6 PCM on a 4-cylinder soon-they use the same trigger wheel and DIS signaling, so I think maybe if I just set "number of cylinders" to 4, it *might* work. Don't know yet-and will need to rig a test bench to find out.

    I'd set the bench up and do it this month but I just got orders for 4 L20B intakes and 3 L20B turbo manifolds...so the shop'll be in full fab mode for a month or so.
    Last edited by Xnke; 03-30-2017 at 12:51 PM.

  3. #18
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    The way I see it, this falls into the choose any 2 of 3 categories, Cheap, easy to tune, flashable, all 3 just doesn't seem like it's going to be an easy thing to find in the Delco world.
    NVSRAM conversion?

  4. #19
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    NVSRAM conversion?

    The way I understand the NVSRam conversion is that it will only work with certain masks, and even then the bin needs to be modified for it to work, I also don't consider it cheap. I also don't see it on Moates' site anymore and that was how I remember it, that it became so niche, that support for it dropped out and the product was no longer sold.

    As far as noise an MS, I've only use low-Z (GM TBI) and boost control solenoids from that list, but not together. I've used them with GM HEI (and similar) ignition which moves the coil driver(s) far away from the ECU, which is how I would do every install. I don't know why people want to bring the potential for noise and high currents INTO the ECU, let external boxes do that. So maybe that's the difference, I install things in such a way to make sure noise won't be an issue, because I don't want to deal with it ever. I don't really blame the product for that, because anyone that is into electronics knows that could be a problem bring those drivers on board. *shrug*
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  5. #20
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    Heck, I've had issues with JUST the Low-Z injectors. Then, on other installs, absolutely no issues at all. Even when I could reproduce the noise on the bench, outside the car, I got told there "was no noise issue" and that it wasn't a problem.

    In the end, I've just moved away from MS as much as possible, but for many applications it still makes for the best choice for the job. I still run MS2E on my Datsun, I still build harnesses for customers, and at times I still have to recommend it over other applications.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    so I think maybe if I just set "number of cylinders" to 4, it *might* work. Don't know yet-and will need to rig a test bench to find out.
    it will be a little more in-depth than that, there are likely some hardcoded values(like those used for the RPM calculation) that will require tweaking as well, along with making sure the PCM doesn't try to fire two non-existing injectors every full cycle.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  7. #22
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    Maybe-but since they included a number-of-cylinders scalar I figure it would be worth a shot.

    I'm two chapters into that book now Robert-and I still can't make good sense of what I'm looking at yet!

  8. #23
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    im trying to do something else with the 93 cav ecm. i need to change the settings on it but i have no software to read the ecm or know of a way to flash it back to it. i do have a aldl cable.

  9. #24
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    I haven't messed with this in a long time. Still exploring the P66 code, kinda forked the GM code and have been hacking in some "universal IO" stuff, things like allowing the EGR outputs to be programmable on two logic conditions. Basically I've got three outputs that can be toggled on/off based on one or two conditions, but so far you can only setup 1 at a time or the code crashes.

  10. #25
    Electronic Ignition!
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    what software are you using to read the ecm?

  11. #26
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    I'm not-I just sniffed it out with a scan tool and bus pirate.

  12. #27
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    I'm looking at this.

    https://controls.is/shop/ecu/lpc4

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