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Thread: 400FWHP TBI build attempt thread

  1. #1
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    400FWHP TBI build attempt thread

    1992 C1500 extended cab I picked up for $450.00. Bad 700R4, body damage in the front right corner, GT4 (3.73) rear. Going hydraulic roller. EBL Flash acquired, working on first step with VE tables for (hopefully) start and first run once it's all put together with the upgrades. Rebuilt 700R4 going back in tomorrow, then figuring out why I'm getting the code 23 and doing some driving and tweaking the tune for more experience with EBL Flash prior to buildup. I've researched what I want to do since June and have found a great deal of info along the way, thanks to the dedication of the community. Sean at SPR and Bob at Dynamic EFI have been great to deal with. Brian H's site was the first I found on the subject of TBI performance and has been a great help as well. Tomorrow, transmission. Then the fun begins. Tomorrow I'll post up my first stab at putting together VE tables for all these mods to come. May be good for laughs, might be in the ballpark.
    Last edited by Gojira94; 12-19-2016 at 09:44 PM. Reason: OCD

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    Well, the line breaks didn't make it into the post. replaced with screenshot.
    Last edited by Gojira94; 12-19-2016 at 09:45 PM. Reason: OCD

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    Here are the VE tables I came up with as a starting point. I used a calculator to generate some fairly sparse data points and then filled in and shaped them in TunerPro. They may be total crap, I'm not sure. The transition from low to high is smooth and the highest VE is in the area where the engine should make the most torque efficiently.

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    I'm needing some guidance with what to input for BPC calculation in EBL Flash. I originally calculated using the TBI Fueling page at dynamicefi.com before getting started. I reckoned a hair under the example used on the site and came up with 80# injectors at 22-23psi, 85% duty cycle. I realize that's the point at which it would need max fuel for theoretical max HP at 5500-5700RPM and not where the engine will be running 95% of the time. I talked to Sean at SPR when I ordered the TBI, told him my mods/ goals/ expected HP needed to support, that I'd be using an Aeromotive 13301 VRFPR and would need a blockoff plate. He said BBC injectors are not the way to go, just dial up the pressure on the 60.5# injectors. Using the BPC calculator, I get 39psi needed to support that peak HP with 60.5#s. This seems like an easy place to completely blow the tune if BPC is wrong from pressure and flow rates way off. So my questions are 1) How much pressure can the 5235206 injectors handle? 2) If they can handle 39psi, I'm wondering where to set the base pressure on the regulator with the 20-65# spring? 3) Would a minimum of 20# be too much and I should be looking for a spring more like 15-45psi that fits the 13301? Thanks

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    Another EBL Flash question

    I think I've answered my own questions about the pressure. 39-40psi will be ok, EBL's BPC tables will handle it. Base pressure on the 20-60# spring needs to be set at 39-40psi with the vacuum nipple open to air. Then connect it and let vacuum handle the pressure drop at idle, with corresponding BPC vs. VAC table values. I expect a touch over 15" Hg at commanded idle speeds with IAC vs. temp at normal operating temps. Next question is why am I missing the BST-BPC vs Boost for a 1-bar MAP?? I see 4 tables each for 2-bar and 3-bar but none for 1-bar. I looked in the option words and as expected none of the 2 or 3-bar words are set, and apparently I didn't miss turning on the default of 1-bar MAP. So, if using a 1-bar MAP, just don't worry about the BST-BPC vs Boost? I think this is pretty much the last thing for the base starter tune. Again, any feedback or criticism of anything I've posted so far with any of this is appreciated.

  6. #6
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    Personally I wpuld run the big block injectors at that power level. I have run the 61s as high as 50 psi but the opening and closing times start to get too long for higher rpm use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    Personally I wpuld run the big block injectors at that power level. I have run the 61s as high as 50 psi but the opening and closing times start to get too long for higher rpm use.
    Thanks for the input. When you say higher RPMs, how high? I'm planning to spin no higher than 5500, limiter set at 5750. I'm feeling like I should have insisted on BBC injectors. I think I'd have fewer concerns and questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gojira94 View Post
    Thanks for the input. When you say higher RPMs, how high? I'm planning to spin no higher than 5500, limiter set at 5750. I'm feeling like I should have insisted on BBC injectors. I think I'd have fewer concerns and questions.
    You are going to have a hard time making 400 hp under 6,000 rpm on a 350 that mild.Pulsewidth to stay under 80% duty cycle goes from 5msec at 5,000 to 4 msec at 6,000. If it takes 500 usec to open the injector and another 250 usec to close you are looking at needing an injector that can get the fuel volume necessary in 3.25 msec. Big injectors are a must for a high hp TBI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    You are going to have a hard time making 400 hp under 6,000 rpm on a 350 that mild.Pulsewidth to stay under 80% duty cycle goes from 5msec at 5,000 to 4 msec at 6,000. If it takes 500 usec to open the injector and another 250 usec to close you are looking at needing an injector that can get the fuel volume necessary in 3.25 msec. Big injectors are a must for a high hp TBI.
    I agree with Fast355 on the using Big injectors to make 400 hp. My own personal best with a SBC 5.7 Liter TBI chassis dyno pull was 330 Rear Wheel HP using 454 TBI injectors part #5235231 at 15 PSI. I used Vortec heads, EFI roller camshaft (similar to a Comp Cams 268 grind), Vortec 4 barrel aftermarket intake with a TBI adapter plate, headers, 9.2:1 CR, 0.045" Quench, and the 16197427 PCM... I admit there was a slight trade off in the tune, the big injectors were on the rich side at idle at 15 psi... The 16197427 has near idle fuel and spark tables, very helpful for idle tuning! The 16197427 has off idle fuel and spark tables, very helpful for MAX performance tuning! ... The EBL system does not have separate near idle / off idle fuel and spark tables, I wish it did... dave w

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    I agree with Fast355 on the using Big injectors to make 400 hp. My own personal best with a SBC 5.7 Liter TBI chassis dyno pull was 330 Rear Wheel HP using 454 TBI injectors part #5235231 at 15 PSI. I used Vortec heads, EFI roller camshaft (similar to a Comp Cams 268 grind), Vortec 4 barrel aftermarket intake with a TBI adapter plate, headers, 9.2:1 CR, 0.045" Quench, and the 16197427 PCM... I admit there was a slight trade off in the tune, the big injectors were on the rich side at idle at 15 psi... The 16197427 has near idle fuel and spark tables, very helpful for idle tuning! The 16197427 has off idle fuel and spark tables, very helpful for MAX performance tuning! ... The EBL system does not have separate near idle / off idle fuel and spark tables, I wish it did... dave w
    I have never once used seperate VE table or Spark values at idle. I found them an annoyance. Even on my 0411 both idle tables and the main table have the same values.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    I have never once used seperate VE table or Spark values at idle. I found them an annoyance. Even on my 0411 both idle tables and the main table have the same values.
    I completely agree, separate VE and Spark tables are an annoyance. I was very annoyed with the hours and hours of time I spent writing an excel spreadsheet that would sort / filter / average the separate tables from the data log .csv file. I also find waiting on the spreadsheet to finish processing annoying. dave w

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    You are going to have a hard time making 400 hp under 6,000 rpm on a 350 that mild.Pulsewidth to stay under 80% duty cycle goes from 5msec at 5,000 to 4 msec at 6,000. If it takes 500 usec to open the injector and another 250 usec to close you are looking at needing an injector that can get the fuel volume necessary in 3.25 msec. Big injectors are a must for a high hp TBI.
    Thanks- that's the math I needed to know that I need to learn. I'll touch base with Sean at SPR and swap out injectors. I may not hit 400FW but it'll come pretty damn close by 5700 if nothing scatters. I've studied and planned this build for 6 months. Fueling and tuning are the 2 biggest variables for success with my build and I know it. I had wanted to keep the stock TBI intake and open the bores but I'm headed toward the Holley 300-49 since it doesn't need to be bored to accept a 46mm TB and it has the center bolt holes at the correct angle for the early pattern SBC heads I'm using. Slotting the stock TBI centers was starting to look ugly for lack of room there without hitting the walls.

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    Right now I'm looking at how to resolve the code 23 it's throwing in EBL, on a truck with no IAT/MAT sensor. The word/ bit aren't set for that in the base bin (ebl_f_2010) and I'm not sure why I'm getting it. I wanted to square everything away and fine tune the stock setup for practice VE learns, etc. before tearing into it. Hoping to start tearing it down later this week.

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    EBL specific questions

    I reflashed banks 0 and 1 with the 2010 and 2011 bins. Now each one works and drives normally and the SES light isn't on, but I see this in the Malf Codes display. The screen cap doesn't show it, but the IAT LO 23 blinks in the first column and is solid in the 3rd. The EST code 42 is just solid in the 3rd column. That's knock sensor failure and it's defaulting to the ICM control of timing in the distributor, correct? I think my question is about how to read this malfunction code table in EBL.

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    I disconnected the battery for a few minutes and tried again. This time I only got the code 23 blinking in the first column. I read somewhere recently that it's normal for it to do that. No other codes in any column. It drives really well. Very happy with how it runs on the EBL in stock form. If anyone more familiar with EBL Flash than me can briefly explain what the 3 Malf Code table columns are about I'd appreciate it.

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