Adding TBI and 4L80e to 74 Argosy motorhome

[bkahler]

Ok this is my first post and it will probably be obvious I need help!

For those of you who have read Keyair's thread about his Airstream motorhome TBI project you'll find that I'm basically doing the same thing only coming at it from a slightly different direction. My project is a 1974 Argosy built by Airstream motorhome on a P-30 chassis. However mine is not nearly as polished and refined as Keyair's!
Attachment 10126

For me the good news is I don't have to deal with California's smog crap. I have a 454 newly built to stock specs. Only changes to the engine are the use of an Edelbrock Performer 2.0 intake manifold and a Comp Cams 11-203-3 cam which is considered an RV cam. I also have a 4L80e that I will be installing. I had originally planned on using an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor but have decided to make the switch to TBI since I need to control the transmission anyway.

Several years ago I picked up for free a 4L80e out of a 1994 C30 flatbed truck with if I remember right a 5.7 engine. The truck had an engine fire so I never really saw the engine but was told it was 5.7. When I picked up the transmission I also grabbed the ECM from under the seat. The ECM number is 16168625. At the time I did not know about needing the VSSB but have since located a VSSB from a 1994 Chevy pickup. I realize the calibration will be wrong but it's something to start with.

Here's what I have so far:

7.4 newly built
4L80e (from a 1994 Chevy G/P Van)
ECM is 16168625 (I have a DRAC controller and the appropriate plugs with wire stubs from a junk yard car for the DRAC)

For a variety of reasons I don't want to source all of the TBI components separately so I'm seriously looking at the Affordable Fuel Injections system but I'm not sure yet if that's the best approach for my situation.

My major concern with buying off the shelf from AFI is the ability to make ECM changes. What I would like to know is if I bought a turnkey system from AFI what would it take to be able to re-program the ECM myself? My concern is will I be able to capture all of the data (tables?) or other necessary information that is currently programmed in the ECM so I don't have to start from scratch?

What I'm looking for is just a dependable system where parts can be be sourced just about anywhere on the road (other than ECM).

I'm sure I'll have other questions, I just don't know what questions to ask yet.

Thanks!

Brad

[KeyAir]

Welcome to the Knowledge Brad!

[dave w]

Most aftermarket TBI systems use the older 1st generation TBI computer 1227747. Most aftermarket TBI system will not offer the newer 2nd generation TBI PCM to allow using the 4L60E or 4L80E.

I've recently learned the 4L80E should be used with TBI PCM 16197427. I had shifting problems with the 16168625 and 4L80E.

I would consider using a harness from http://fuelinjectionconnection.com/gpage.html Fuel Injection Connection offers an affordable 4L80E ready TBI harness!

I would also consider using a Moates.net Ostrich 2.0 http://www.moates.net/ostrich-20-the...eed-p-169.html to do my own tuning. Simply connect a laptop with TunerPro RT software to the Ostrich 2.0 with a USB cable and tune, even when driving!

dave w

[bkahler]

Dave, thanks for the reply.

Most aftermarket TBI systems use the older 1st generation TBI computer 1227747. Most aftermarket TBI system will not offer the newer 2nd generation TBI PCM to allow using the 4L60E or 4L80E.

I've recently learned the 4L80E should be used with TBI PCM 16197427. I had shifting problems with the 16168625 and 4L80E.

Could you describe your shifting problems? The 16168625 ECM that I have was in the same truck that I pulled the 4L80e from so I would have expected them to work together well.

Another area of concern I have is my year of 4L80e. It came from a 94 G Van and from what I've read between 93 and 94 there was a change in the force motor. I've read that you are supposed to use an ECM that matches your 4L80e. The tag on my 4L80e says B MP which I'm lead to believe means model year 94 and calendar year 93. So does that mean I have the new or old force motor?

Or as is quite often the case am I all wrong about this?!

I would consider using a harness from http://fuelinjectionconnection.com/gpage.html Fuel Injection Connection offers an affordable 4L80E ready TBI harness!

At the moment my preference is to buy a complete system so I don't have to deal with sourcing parts from all over. I'm not saying I wouldn't consider buying components individually but where I'm at right now buying as a bundle would simplify things a great deal for me.

I would also consider using a Moates.net Ostrich 2.0 http://www.moates.net/ostrich-20-the...eed-p-169.html to do my own tuning. Simply connect a laptop with TunerPro RT software to the Ostrich 2.0 with a USB cable and tune, even when driving!

I ran across the Moates site just recently and there's no doubt what the have to offer is tempting. Even if I buy a turnkey system I'm still very interested in being able to tune myself once the system is installed.

This brings up my next question. With a turnkey system the vendor would have modified programs and parameters in the ECM. Is it possible to capture all of the data and files from the modified ECM so that I have a copy that could be transferred to a different chip and/or ECM. For example if I initially start out with a 16168625 and then decide due to shifting problems such as you exhibited I want to switch to the 16197427 ECM. Is this feasible or am I looking at this all wrong?

Thanks!

Brad

[1project2many]

The tag on my 4L80e says B MP which I'm lead to believe means model year 94 and calendar year 93. So does that mean I have the new or old force motor?

After this many years, I feel there's no guarantee what components are in that transmission. Compounding this is the fact that transition years in GM land mean changes don't always match documentation. I'd think the safest answer is to pull the pan and check.

This brings up my next question. With a turnkey system the vendor would have modified programs and parameters in the ECM. Is it possible to capture all of the data and files from the modified ECM so that I have a copy that could be transferred to a different chip and/or ECM. For example if I initially start out with a 16168625 and then decide due to shifting problems such as you exhibited I want to switch to the 16197427 ECM. Is this feasible or am I looking at this all wrong?

Ultimately a "turn key" system will come with a "close" calibration. To fine tune it for best performance will require someone to actively drive, log, and change the calibration where needed. In some cases the vendor will ask you to collect data to send in then will send a chip with a new calibration. Others will ask you to have a tool that replaces the chip and allows them to make changes remotely through your laptop or pc. In most cases the information on the chip is not copy protected nor is it encrypted. So you can read the same data as the vendor would see. The Moates hardware would allow you to replace the chip with an emulator, a tool that holds the calibration and can be updated by you or someone else using your laptop in near real-time. It's a great tool and makes the tuning process so much easier.

[Six_Shooter]

I've done some looking into this 4L80E force motor change and talked with a guru of sorts (he puts 4L80Es in EVERYTHING he owns, because they are strong as ____... Anyway, the change in control schemes is simply that earlier systems MAY have had a "cleaning" cycle, that only ran when in park, and only under certain conditions and was also likely disabled in the calibration anyway.

The AFI TBI kit will not control an electronic trans, so that kit will be a complete waste of time and money for you. The most "expensive" parts will not be used, like the harness and ECM for your application. It would be possible to use the harness and then modify/re-pin it for the different ECM and add the trans wiring, but at that point you might as well, just use the OEM donor harness you'll be using for the modification. The fuel injection connection harness isn't badly priced however.

The right Moates equipment will allow you to capture the data and modify the bin/calibration. The all in one solution is the APU1, I have one and it's great. It also has extra inputs that can be logged, that none of the other tuning systems for OBD1 GM offers from what I've found. So if you have a WBO2 (recommended), you can use one of these inputs and add it to the datastream, without needing to wire to an ECM input use a hacked bin, or modify an existing input for the additional input. You can tune on the fly with the APU1 and even program EEPROMs once you have the calibration where you're happy with it. It also comes with a license for Tuner Pro RT.

this is a very doable set-up that you propose, but I think you're best bet will be piecing the system together, since no aftermarket solution I know of covers all that you want to do in a one price gets you everything deal.

[bkahler]

After this many years, I feel there's no guarantee what components are in that transmission. Compounding this is the fact that transition years in GM land mean changes don't always match documentation. I'd think the safest answer is to pull the pan and check.

I agree with that assessment which is why I'm taking the transmission this Friday to a Transmission shop for a complete refurbishment. I guess I'll know what I have after they've had a chance to open it up.

Ultimately a "turn key" system will come with a "close" calibration. To fine tune it for best performance will require someone to actively drive, log and change the calibration where needed. In some cases the vendor will ask you to collect data to send in then will send a chip with a new calibration. Others will ask you to have a tool that replaces the chip and allows them to make changes remotely through your laptop or pc. In most cases the information on the chip is not copy protected nor is it encrypted. So you can read the same data as the vendor would see. The Moates hardware would allow you to replace the chip with an emulator, a tool that holds the calibration and can be updated by you or someone else using your laptop in near real-time. It's a great tool and makes the tuning process so much easier.

A close calibration is pretty much what I would have expected. That's one of the reasons I'm interested in learning to tune it myself once it more or less runs enough to do so.

Thanks!

By the way I like your handle! 1project2many pretty much describes me as well

[1project2many]

By the way I like your handle! 1project2many pretty much describes me as well

Thanks. I never seem to have time to think of a better one.

Oh, and no worries here about being new or asking questions. Sometimes the simplest questions lead to new understanding of a subject.

[bkahler]

I've done some looking into this 4L80E force motor change and talked with a guru of sorts (he puts 4L80Es in EVERYTHING he owns, because they are strong as ____... Anyway, the change in control schemes is simply that earlier systems MAY have had a "cleaning" cycle, that only ran when in park, and only under certain conditions and was also likely disabled in the calibration anyway.

I've read about the cleaning cycle and the frequency differences. Transmission goes to the shop this Friday although it will be a week or two at least before they can open it up to let me know what I have. That reminds me, I need to drain the transmission fluid!

The AFI TBI kit will not control an electronic trans, so that kit will be a complete waste of time and money for you. The most "expensive" parts will not be used, like the harness and ECM for your application. It would be possible to use the harness and then modify/re-pin it for the different ECM and add the trans wiring, but at that point you might as well, just use the OEM donor harness you'll be using for the modification. The fuel injection connection harness isn't badly priced however.

I've had several long talks with AFI about my ECM (16168625) and my 4L80e and was informed if I had the DRAC/VSSB installed for my gear ratio and tire circumference then my ECM would be able to control the 4L80e. They requested that I send them my ECM to start with which makes sense to me. I will have to do the transmission VSSB wiring myself but I don't think that's out of my range of capabilities.

I don't have any donor harness to start with. I have the 4L80e, the ECM that was controlling it, a VSSB from a different vehicle and a the connectors for the VSSB with short lengths of wire from a donor vehicle. That's what I'm starting with.

The right Moates equipment will allow you to capture the data and modify the bin/calibration. The all in one solution is the APU1, I have one and it's great. It also has extra inputs that can be logged, that none of the other tuning systems for OBD1 GM offers from what I've found. So if you have a WBO2 (recommended), you can use one of these inputs and add it to the datastream, without needing to wire to an ECM input use a hacked bin, or modify an existing input for the additional input. You can tune on the fly with the APU1 and even program EEPROMs once you have the calibration where you're happy with it. It also comes with a license for Tuner Pro RT.

From what I've been able to find so far is the WBO2 won't work with production GM ECMs. It's my understanding all GM ECMs use narrow band only. Can the wide band systems out there put out a suitable signal to be used by the ECMs? If so can you point me to one?

this is a very doable set-up that you propose, but I think you're best bet will be piecing the system together, since no aftermarket solution I know of covers all that you want to do in a one price gets you everything deal.

Nothing is off the table as yet. At this point I'm still trying to wrap my head around all that is involved in a swap. It would have been nice to have a donor vehicle to start with but that's not how things have unfolded.

Thanks!

Brad

[bkahler]

Thanks. I never seem to have time to think of a better one.

And most likely never will!

Oh, and no worries here about being new or asking questions. Sometimes the simplest questions lead to new understanding of a subject.

Or as happens all to frequently in my case the answer just confuses me even more

[dave w]

Could you describe your shifting problems? The 16168625 ECM that I have was in the same truck that I pulled the 4L80e from so I would have expected them to work together well.

With the '8625 PCM the 4L80E transmission would not shift. I tried a spare '7427 PCM, the 4L80E transmission would shift. The really OOD thing is the '8625 would shift my 4L60E.

I think the '8625 was mostly used with the 4L60E in. I think the 16196395 was mostly used the 4L80E. I think the '7427 has some updates to be used with both 4L60E and 4L80E.

dave w

[bkahler]

With the '8625 PCM the 4L80E transmission would not shift. I tried a spare '7427 PCM, the 4L80E transmission would shift. The really OOD thing is the '8625 would shift my 4L60E.

I think the '8625 was mostly used with the 4L60E in. I think the 16196395 was mostly used the 4L80E. I think the '7427 has some updates to be used with both 4L60E and 4L80E.

dave w

That's really interesting and odd. The facts I do know about my 4L80e and the 16168625 ECM is they both came from a running driving truck. The engine caught on fire and the owner pulled the engine and transmission and sat them on the shop floor. When I picked up the 4L80e I walked over to the truck and pulled the ECM figuring it was a matched set. The ECM that I have has a chip configured for a 4.3 with 4L80e and since my engine is a 7.4 I knew I was going to have to do something to get the ECM to work with my engine. I wonder why the 16168625 would work in the 4.3/4L80e configuration but not in yours. Weird to say the least.

[dave w]

That's really interesting and odd. The facts I do know about my 4L80e and the 16168625 ECM is they both came from a running driving truck. The engine caught on fire and the owner pulled the engine and transmission and sat them on the shop floor. When I picked up the 4L80e I walked over to the truck and pulled the ECM figuring it was a matched set. The ECM that I have has a chip configured for a 4.3 with 4L80e and since my engine is a 7.4 I knew I was going to have to do something to get the ECM to work with my engine. I wonder why the 16168625 would work in the 4.3/4L80e configuration but not in yours. Weird to say the least.

The project vehicle is a 7.4 Liter 1988 K3500 Dually. More than a year ago, the 1227747 was upgraded to the '8625. The '8625 was tuned and the project vehicle was daily driven. About a month ago, the TH400 was replaced with a "rebuilt" 4L80E was installed. I don't know what mix of internal electronics were used in the "rebuilt" 4L80E. I find it interesting, after some internet research, other 4L80E conversions had similar shifting problems with the '8625.

dave w

[bkahler]

The project vehicle is a 7.4 Liter 1988 K3500 Dually. More than a year ago, the 1227747 was upgraded to the '8625. The '8625 was tuned and the project vehicle was daily driven. About a month ago, the TH400 was replaced with a "rebuilt" 4L80E was installed. I don't know what mix of internal electronics were used in the "rebuilt" 4L80E. I find it interesting, after some internet research, other 4L80E conversions had similar shifting problems with the '8625.

dave w

Dave, I just installed the Caldata program from Tunercat and entered the broadcast code BJFJ that came with the 16168625 ECM and didn't get the results I expected.

The BJFJ broadcast code is supposed to have been used with the 16196395 ECM and was for a 5.7 liter engine (the engine size I expected) and a 4L80e transmission, model year 1994.

Now here's the info that is on the tag on my 16168625 ECM.

Serv No 16168625 BJFJ
*86BJFJK533217105*
16197505
*86BJFJK533217105*

The blue chip holder has Delco 7480 BJFJ

Next I searched on the 16168625 ECM. It was only used with the 4L60e and manual transmissions.

I guess the first question is the Caldata program considered to be accurate or are there missing records?

Second question would be if Caldata is correct how would I have an ECM not have the broadcast code match the ECM number?

Brad

[dave w]

Brad,
I do not know how accurate Caldata is. Most likely, there was some parts swapping done to the vehicle to have non-matching numbers.

I think a good plan going forward would be use a '7427 PCM. I also think it would be a good plan to use an original 7.4 Liter Memcal.

dave w