$42 tuning

[dyeager535]

Mark said I should start a thread.

My dads truck is a 1974 K20 frame, with '81 cab/bed, '89 front end. 4.10's on roughly 33" tires.

454, 4 speed manual, 205 t-case. Just converted it over to 1227747 TBI, he added a heated O2 sensor before I found out they are open loop idle.

"Mods" on the motor are a mild hydraulic cam designed for towing, an Edelbrock intake, and headers. Everything else stock AFAIK.

He started with the '89 (donor) ANTY PROM, which is for an automatic. Stalled on quick clutch apply. Had been running without VSS.

Bought the TBI PROM adapter/ZIF from Moates, and I've been using my Autoprom. Haven't been able to get the Autoprom to communicate with the ECM, but I can datalog with Tunerpro V4. So making changes, burning bin on the Autoprom, install, test drive. Not as bad as having to go into the house, but a bit annoying. Already been in touch with Moates, need to get off my tail and do as they suggest, check emulation on my '165 setup. It was working before, no reason it wouldn't now, but I understand and will test it again eventually.

Dad lives about 60 miles away, so I've only had one crack at it so far. Using an '87 manual bin is better than the auto for sure. Stalling gone. Got VSS partially installed, next task on it is getting the factory VSS wiring in there. Made some changes in the timing map as he stated there was a light throttle/light load flat spot as he very gently tried to accelerate at cruise. Since I wasn't datalogging, I made an educated guess based on the RPM he noted the flat spot was, coupled with a low timing region on the map initially, and I was quite happy it improved when he re-tested.

Timing is easy. I haven't spent a bunch of time learning the VE tables yet. With limited time, I wanted to take care of the obvious, quick solve problems first.

My next real challenge, is idle. It tends to surge. Not completely consistent, but not related to hot/cold temperature either. Tested for vac leaks, none found.

Since its surging, a fairly decent increase in idle fueling should be a quick indicator if I'm on the right track thinking it's lean. Just need to find out how to do that. Is it as simple as going into the VE tables and changing the values in the cells where it idles? I figure that's too simplistic, but one can hope! Just for the heck of it, I made it go closed loop at idle, that didn't fix it either.

And one follow on question. When looking at timing on this thing, say datalogging, what's with the 8*/1000RPM change with ALDL? Is that 8* applied across the board even when test driving? I quickly figured out where to zero it out, but that was a curiosity of mine.

[EagleMark]

Maybe the bin he has is open loop but the 1227747 is not. My 5.7L 1990 Suburban is 1227747 and BCC ADSU runs closed loop idle so you should be able to find a bin for 7.4L that will idle closed loop if you can't find a way to change that bin.

There's lots of Superseded bins for 7.4L if you post up what your using I will check it. Some were surging idle issues... you've already found that manual bins and auto bins have big differences.

Another issue with surging idle is main, vacuum leak, but since you can't find any there are 2 other things that help idle. One is VSS which you are installing so I wouldn't waste to much time trying to tune that out till the VSS is hooked up.

Next is the Park/Neutral drive switch. If you don't have one like most conversions that wire should be grounded IIRC makes ECM think it is in drive. Not only will it drive better but will idle better. I've never had the opportunity to pull a harness from a manual truck so I don't know what they do on them from factory? But seems you started with an Auto harness and ECM.

Not sure of TunerPro V4 has option under tools, custom tools, open new tunerpro instance. But we are finding a lot of issues once you open 2 tunerpros. I found this problem and when this problem is present it also shows up in other places making changes in xdf not work, not sure if it applies to emulation, next time I emulate I am going to try because a guy here could not emulate and sent his AutoProm in for testing, before we found this bug... anyway I don't know if this even applies to TPV4
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...o-Instance-BUG

If you don't have TPV5, you should it has many improvements and seems most xdf when opened and saved in TPV5 no longer work in TPV4. So most xdf here are probably been changed to V5 type xdf. ADX will not work in TPV4 either you have to have an old .ads file. So your emulation issue may be you have a TPV5 xdf in TPv4 and uploading bin (Corrupt) to autoProm there's no way to tell because they are both xdf. Your changing mask id to AA to emulate correct? If you have the $42-1227747-V3.xdf from our ECM information threads it is a TPv5 xdf. We just found this out couple days ago in this thread starts around post 9:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...lookup-Project

VE tables are like you said, to easy. higher number more fuel, lower number less fuel. Doing a data log and using the spreadsheet made by Dave W. in the $42 information thread is a great tool once you get the hang of using it. It will correct VE in all cells that have BLM data.

HTH get you going...

[FSJ Guy]

Don't worry about spending the extra for the heater O2 sensor. I didn't have one on my '7747 system and I would get a CEL (Check Engine Light) when idling in the cold or right after I went through slush, cold water or ice. A few minutes of driving at speed would make it go away.

Short version: You haven't wasted your money. :D

X2 on hooking up the Park/Neutral switch. And the VSS.

Are you running EGR control? If not, you will have to disable the EGR trouble code OR disable EGR activation by maxing out the minimum temp for EGR activation. When I added the VSS, the ECM can now activate the EGR since it's controlled by speed and temp.

[Six_Shooter]

Manual bins don't require a P/N input.

VSS, however is very important, do do any more tuning until that is installed. You'll be amazed at the difference in drivability.

[EagleMark]

Thanks Six Shooter, I had always wondered what they did there. I'd like to find that in the bin to make auto bin not need it in conversions.

Diabling the EGR in bin is very important if you don't have one. Not only turning off the CEL error code 32, but disabling EGR too! If not it will add spark when qualifiers are met to turn it on.

Lot's of guys run 1227747 without VSS including me. Untill I added it to an IH Scout I had a conversion on for awhile. Difference is amazing.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Back when I still had the 7747 in my jeep, I never had anything hooked to the neautral saftey switch wire. My datalog would show it as always being in "drive"
So manual trans rigs probably never had anything hooked to that input.

[dyeager535]

Right on the manual bin...there is nothing in it for "park/neutral", at least that you can see in Tunerpro. I'm assuming that's a coding thing and it's there, we just can't see it without digging into the code.

EGR is hooked up.

Sorry about the inference that the 747's are all open loop. His GM manual specifically states the big blocks are open loop idle, and so far thats what I've found with the 7.4 bins. That export bin is the only one I could find that didn't allow me to make it closed loop. I did enable closed loop idle on one of the bins, but the idle didn't improve noticeably, so I reverted back to open loop for tuning. I can see no reason, once open loop is tuned, not to make it idle in closed loop. Assuming it likes to idle in closed loop.

I am going to go to ATPY (can't remember what I was working with before, ANTZ? Those two bins don't seem to have any difference though) solely because he has added OD and that drops his 4.10's to 3.23's (roughly), and that matches the ATPY bin. EGR appears the only thing that changed based on gear ratio alone (same year at least). If there is a better bin, I'll just change the EGR TPS enable/disable values to match.

I'm unclear on VSS and idle with the '747. Is that a code thing as well? Nothing but EGR seems to be tied to VSS in the bin. It didn't seem to clear his idle problem up. I know on thirdgen I found one post that referenced VSS to the IAC, but that was it. You'd think that would be reflected somewhere in the bin in TP, but I don't see it.

Dad says he set ZIF up as Moates' website shows, but my '165 has the ZIF reversed from his. If that were critical I'd think no PROM would work, but that's not the case. ONLY emulation fails. It does emulate on my '165. Only using one instance of TP4. I've got the license for 4, so not real anxious to swap yet. I was running Windows 2000 until about two years ago, if that says something about me and change. :)

[EagleMark]

All those bins have been supercedded to AZFU so that would be the one I would start with. AZFW is another good one. I don't have either so maybe Motes fileman? Don't try AKUP as it came back as an export chip too! Unless it's a closed loop possible export...

If his chip works then emulation should work? Your emulation is working on the other ECM so it works... only thing I can think of is your using TPV4 and your $42 has been saved in TPV5? Attach your XDF and I could look at it in notpad to see if it looks like a TPV4 or TPV5 file.

Found a $42.xdf that is the old xdf style so try it to load bin to AutoProm and emulate with it. Remember AA !

VSS is in the code and tells ECM if moving or stopped, not much in the xdf on them lots of stuff in bin is not in xdf, even less when you use TC, just the basics... but man does it make a differance having one.

[dyeager535]

What is AZFT? Only one I can find, but I'm guessing its same year, automatic? No luck finding either you mention.

I uploaded the two xdf's I have on this computer. As usual, I have no idea where I grabbed them, but likely tunerpro.net, diy-efi, or moates. Pretty sure I've been using the "42" one, not the other. I note though, that there is a large discrepancy in size from what you posted, and what mine is. As a matter of fact, both are different file sizes. Wish I had the truck here, I'd try them all, not like it's hard.

I did nothing but connect laptop to ECM and then uploaded bin to autoprom. Exactly what I do for the '165, which I tested today and still works. Is there something different I SHOULD be doing with the 1227747? I'm guessing it's the XDF, based on the file size disparity...

[EagleMark]

AZFT is an auto bin.

I know we had looked before for the other 7.4 manual but it was pointed out they are rare because big blocks normally came with 1227787 ecm. It was also pointed out that some superseded bins are all that is available to work with and did not have big problems?
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...eed-a-Bin-file

Both your xdf are in TPV4 format. Size just means there is more detail to them. The one in our $42 ECM information thread is twice the size of your big one... many more parameters and comments. But it is TpV5 format. I really don't know what would happen if you tried to use it. 93v8S10 said it messed up the xdf he built for Tpv5 when opened in TPV4. When you look at them in notepad you can see they are different format.

Only thing different on 1227747 from your 165 and I don't know if 165 has a memcal? But ribbon from AutoProm goes on opposite, red line goes on chip side with notch. Notch is on inside 1227747 and outside on memcal chip ECM I have worked on...

Now you said dad put zif in backward which would not be an issue, but what did he do under zif? It has a G2 adapter that has to go the right way?
g2-c.jpg
http://support.moates.net/2010/05/10...-installation/

[dyeager535]

Yeah he reviewed the installation on Moates site, he said he followed it exactly. I had him verify, apparently he did. I didn't really mean backwards, just that the installation of the cable from the Autoprom and the chips is opposite from the '165...but you confirmed that is correct.

Not to besmirch Moates, I should have put this out front, I wrote to them and as usual they responded promptly, asking for pertinent information. They are a top notch operation. It's just nice to discuss the problem in an open forum. Typically learn at least something from it!

[Six_Shooter]

To use an Ostrich 2.0 with a '7747 ECM, it requires a part called a Socket Booster, From my understanding though, the AutoProm doesn't need this.

What do you mean by "The cable goes backwards to the '165?"

The red stripe will always go to the pin #1, regardless of ECM. On the '7747, the red strip pointes towards the CALPAK. Towards the right from the angle of the picture above.

[dyeager535]

To use an Ostrich 2.0 with a '7747 ECM, it requires a part called a Socket Booster, From my understanding though, the AutoProm doesn't need this.

What do you mean by "The cable goes backwards to the '165?"

The red stripe will always go to the pin #1, regardless of ECM. On the '7747, the red strip pointes towards the CALPAK. Towards the right from the angle of the picture above.

Yes, saw mention of the socket booster, but nothing about it applying specifically for the Autoprom, so I suspect that shouldn't be an issue.

On the image shown on Moates' site (above) the chip notch goes towards the handle. This is not the case with my '165 "GP1". Pin 1 at the other end of the ZIF compared to the '747. http://www.moates.net/gp1-package-gm....html?cPath=64 Moates doesn't show it with a chip in, but Pin 1 in that picture is to the left.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is inconsequential. As I understand it, the "adapter" circuit board (either the G1, G2, etc) is what determines where pin 1 is, the ZIF does not do anything but allow you to easily remove the chip or chip adapter of the autoprom, so whichever way the handle faces isn't really a determining factor. Is my understanding correct?

As I see it, it must be, or the ZIF handle/chip notch orientation would have to be the same on both ECM's.

[EagleMark]

To use an Ostrich 2.0 with a '7747 ECM, it requires a part called a Socket Booster, From my understanding though, the AutoProm doesn't need this.

What do you mean by "The cable goes backwards to the '165?"

The red stripe will always go to the pin #1, regardless of ECM. On the '7747, the red strip pointes towards the CALPAK. Towards the right from the angle of the picture above.

Right but pin 1 (notch) is on outside on a memcal and pin 1 (notch) inside on a chip. Not that it's backwards just that the notch is inside on chip type ECM and outside on memcal ecm.

2.Hook the 28-pin ribbon cable header to the ECM chip adapter socket. Make sure the ‘red’ wire points toward where the notch, or Pin1, would be on a chip normally going in the socket.

I've never needed the socket booster with AutoProm even with the longer ribbon cable.

Since Emulation is working on your 165 and your hooking up cable right on both 165 and 7747, xdf is an old TPV4 type to go with your TPV4, chip is working in 7747 with adapter... I'm puzzeled at why it won't emulate the 7747?

Did notice a couple differant things in AutoProm instructions between the 2 ECMs?

3.Get your PC powered on with TunerPro or TunerCat loaded up. Hook USB cable up to the AutoProm and PC. Check the AutoProm switch positions along the backpanel. The innermost horizontal switch can be positioned either inboard (10k – used to select data initiation on older-model vehicles like the MAF TPI) or outboard (open A-B – almost everything else) depending on ECM requirements. The outer horizontal switch should be in the ‘towards the USB port’ position. (APU1 mode. Other position is passthrough mode, identical to ALDU1).
4.If you haven’t already loaded a file onto the AutoProm, you will get an SES light condition indicating bad PROM content. Now is the time to go ahead and initialize the AutoProm from the PC software (should be under ‘Emulation, Initialize’ option). Once initialized, load the desired binary file into the PC software and upload it to the AutoProm (option should be right next to the ‘Initialize’ button). You may want to select the ‘Verify’ option (in TunerPro) to ensure that the binary upload was successful. If you keyed the vehicle on without a valid binary loaded, you may need to cycle the key off for about 20 seconds to let the ECM reset.
5.At this point, you should have the AutoProm loaded with the desired binary file. The car should now respond as though a chip with the uploaded binary content is installed. If not, then there is an issue. Either the binary is corrupt or some other condition exists.
6. From the PC software, you can make on-the-fly changes in the BIN content and have those changes immediately transferred to the AutoProm and the car should respond accordingly. There are several options within the supporting PC software, such as ‘Checksum Disable’, ‘Upload Entire Tables’, ‘Update Checksum’, and ‘Keep Item Open’, etc., so read through the documentation and practice a little bit so you understand what is going on and what to select. Typically, checksum disable or update checksum should be selected. Use a setting of “AA at 08” for 28 pin applications, and “AA at 04” for 24 pin ECMs.

[EagleMark]

The more I think about it, the more I think this is inconsequential. As I understand it, the "adapter" circuit board (either the G1, G2, etc) is what determines where pin 1 is, the ZIF does not do anything but allow you to easily remove the chip or chip adapter of the autoprom, so whichever way the handle faces isn't really a determining factor. Is my understanding correct?

Correct. Notch of chip on 7747 goes inside. Does not matter where zif handle is. As long as G1 was not installed in ECM backwards! Zif could be backwards. Chip just passes through ZIF.