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Thread: PCM Options for Supercharged 454 / 4L80E

  1. #1
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    PCM Options for Supercharged 454 / 4L80E

    I'm open to ideas to upgrade from a $85 to something / anything that can operate a Supercharged 454 / 4L80E!

    dave w

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    Vintage Methane Ejector
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    ELB running engine with piggybacked 7427 (or equivalent) running $0D modified for 4L80-E; or $0E/$31; or one of the trans only masks, controlling the transmission.

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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    I did not know EBL would operate 2 Bar / 3 Bar MAP. That is good to know!

    dave w

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    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Or a 1227730/1227749 running $58/$59, with the aforementioned 16197427, or a stand alone tranny controller.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    The vehicle is a 93 Chevy C3500 Dually, which has a 16147060 PCM ($85), so the current PCM can be reused.

    dave w

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    Dave,

    Although it's typical to think "boost compatible calibration" when adding a turbo or supercharger, the requirements are different for the two forms of forced induction. While a turbo is a load dependent device needing a more complex tune, a supercharger's boost is a simpler function of rpm and throttle position. Knowing at what minimum RPM the S/C is able to provide boost allows very sufficient tuning using PE mode values. Once minimum RPM is exceeded, the minimum TPS at which boost occurs increases as RPM increases. This continues to maximum compressor flow or maximum engine rpm, whichever occurs first. PE mode enable rpm should be lower than or equal to minimum boost rpm, and tps values should not be higher than minimum boost tps. Spark can also be scaled by rpm although if using a 1 BAR cal with 1 BAR sensor you may feel lost without load based adjustment. In this case look for a TPS based PE spark table and use negative values if possible to decrease spark as throttle angle increases in PE mode. If the PE spark tables are limited to 8 bits, a simple change in code from ADD to SUB solves the problem. A C3500 dually is a heavy vehicle and you should expect it to spend large amounts of time under high load. Use a conservative spark table and make sure the knock retard is programmed to pull more spark out quickly and to add it back in very slowly just in case there's a problem. If you have a way to monitor an external 5V signal you can use a 2 BAR MAP and data logging to plot a graph of boost by RPM and TPS for use in future fine tuning this vehicle. Alternatively you can switch to a 2 BAR MAP and re-scale the MAP based calibration values appropriately using the voltage - pressure curve for your sensor. Since the ecm / pcm is not responsible for controlling boost, there is no advantage to using a calibration with extra functions built in to limit boost. Since MAP can be plotted as a function of RPM and TPS, you will provide acceptable performance mapping out boost fuel and spark tables using an alpha-N strategy. And since this is a heavy vehicle which will not subject to the same herky-jerky reactions as a lightweight car with a high power engine, you won't have to worry about the need for high resolution tables and overlapping functions to smooth any transitions in driver input. Bottom line for me would be to use the same mask unless I didn't have access to enough tuning data in which case I'd choose $0D.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    Dave,

    Although it's typical to think "boost compatible calibration" when adding a turbo or supercharger, the requirements are different for the two forms of forced induction. While a turbo is a load dependent device needing a more complex tune, a supercharger's boost is a simpler function of rpm and throttle position. Knowing at what minimum RPM the S/C is able to provide boost allows very sufficient tuning using PE mode values. Once minimum RPM is exceeded, the minimum TPS at which boost occurs increases as RPM increases. This continues to maximum compressor flow or maximum engine rpm, whichever occurs first. PE mode enable rpm should be lower than or equal to minimum boost rpm, and tps values should not be higher than minimum boost tps. Spark can also be scaled by rpm although if using a 1 BAR cal with 1 BAR sensor you may feel lost without load based adjustment. In this case look for a TPS based PE spark table and use negative values if possible to decrease spark as throttle angle increases in PE mode. If the PE spark tables are limited to 8 bits, a simple change in code from ADD to SUB solves the problem. A C3500 dually is a heavy vehicle and you should expect it to spend large amounts of time under high load. Use a conservative spark table and make sure the knock retard is programmed to pull more spark out quickly and to add it back in very slowly just in case there's a problem. If you have a way to monitor an external 5V signal you can use a 2 BAR MAP and data logging to plot a graph of boost by RPM and TPS for use in future fine tuning this vehicle. Alternatively you can switch to a 2 BAR MAP and re-scale the MAP based calibration values appropriately using the voltage - pressure curve for your sensor. Since the ecm / pcm is not responsible for controlling boost, there is no advantage to using a calibration with extra functions built in to limit boost. Since MAP can be plotted as a function of RPM and TPS, you will provide acceptable performance mapping out boost fuel and spark tables using an alpha-N strategy. And since this is a heavy vehicle which will not subject to the same herky-jerky reactions as a lightweight car with a high power engine, you won't have to worry about the need for high resolution tables and overlapping functions to smooth any transitions in driver input. Bottom line for me would be to use the same mask unless I didn't have access to enough tuning data in which case I'd choose $0D.
    The attached spreadsheet is from my 3rd chip in the tuning proces for the superchared 454 / 4L80E. It seems that at about 50% throttle position, the Kpa's are 100 or slightly more. The overall Lt Term average is 126.4 and the St Term average is 127.4 just a touch rich. I have a total of 34 knock counts, which I'm going to work on next. I like the idea of, "switching to a 2 BAR MAP and re-scale the MAP based calibration values appropriately using the voltage - pressure curve for your sensor." I've not used a 2 BAR MAP before, so I'm not sure what the voltage range is for a 2 BAR MAP (0v ~ 5v)? I'm thinking voltages about a certain value in the 2 BAR MAP would be positive pressure? Any input (link) on technical data for a 2 Bar MAP is greatly appreciated. I'm thinking I'm good on re-scaling the 2 BAR MAP data.

    dave w
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    More than anyone ever needs to know about MAP sensors:
    http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/mapsensor.htm
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    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  9. #9
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    More than anyone ever needs to know about MAP sensors:
    http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/mapsensor.htm
    Thats what I needed! Now I need to redo the timing and fuel tables to the new values.

    dave w

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    Nice find, Mark. I've got similar data squirreled away here because I can never find it on the 'net when I need it.

    Notice that the 2 BAR sensor pressure does not represent a simple scale of the 1 BAR value. It might be worthwhile to alter your definition file to accurately display MAP values for the 2 BAR sensor. Don't forget to check / adjust any trans tables and constants which are MAP based.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Here is what I'm thinking for a $85 2 BAR Conversion, see pic below. Currently the engine idles at about 40 Kpa. All feedback welcome!

    dave w
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    Nice find, Mark. I've got similar data squirreled away here because I can never find it on the 'net when I need it.
    Problem with the internet is when you go back the website and information is gone... when I find good stuff I save it all in a folder... but for now the chart he needed is here with a link...

    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    Here is what I'm thinking for a $85 2 BAR Conversion, see pic below. Currently the engine idles at about 40 Kpa. All feedback welcome!

    dave w
    You and 1project2many seem to have your heads wrapped around this... other feedback is, did you ever get the adx I worked on, working? Gotta have data to do this. Don't think Datamaster does boost and I know it can't be custimized! Was it fianlly hooking up right and no glitch? Then some values are going to need to be changed to match 2 bar! In doing the TunerPro Look Up I found a few turbo and supercahrged adx files... Probably going to want to watch closely knock and if your lucky $85 adx may have retard. I changed the knock history table in my LT1 to spit out retard instead of knock counts and it gives me exact figure in cell to reduce.


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    Dave, you've got the right idea with the chart for the two tables. The MAP voltage values in the table won't change, so the pressure they represent has to be adjusted. As long as you have a way to keep track of what your tuning you're good. I would probably get the definition file and ADX set up to show the correct values just to prevent a silly mistake but that may be because I've had more years to demonstrate to myself that I can actually make them. :) (I once accidentally set up a cal to enable lean cruise when in boost! I didn't hurt anything but it took a real effort to figure out why AFR was going leaner when the VE and PE tables were all set up for richer operation. )


    Datamaster for $58 has checkboxes for OE 2 BAR cal or aftermarket 3 BAR cal. I wish it were more user configurable though. For $58 with DIS it doesn't display spark advance correctly. The displayed timing gets lower as spark advance increases! In order to get the correct values I have to subtract the reference angle from the displayed timing values. The result, without the sign, is the actual timing.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    I seem to be having trouble with my digital camera. I've resorted to my cell camera.

    dave w
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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Problem with the internet is when you go back the website and information is gone... when I find good stuff I save it all in a folder... but for now the chart he needed is here with a link...

    You and 1project2many seem to have your heads wrapped around this... other feedback is, did you ever get the adx I worked on, working? Gotta have data to do this. Don't think Datamaster does boost and I know it can't be custimized! Was it fianlly hooking up right and no glitch? Then some values are going to need to be changed to match 2 bar! In doing the TunerPro Look Up I found a few turbo and supercahrged adx files... Probably going to want to watch closely knock and if your lucky $85 adx may have retard. I changed the knock history table in my LT1 to spit out retard instead of knock counts and it gives me exact figure in cell to reduce.

    I posted some pics. I am using a TunerPro .xdf, and data logging with DataMaster TTS. As many of you know, I tune for hire. This is a tune I am hired to do, so the final decision to convert to 2 BAR is not mine. At this point, I don't know if the owner will decide to go 2 BAR or not? If every "Truck Magazine" had 2 BAR conversions articles for superchargers, then I'm sure the owner would buy into the idea. I'm thinking the owner will not want to "Guinea Pig" what must seem like a wild idea to someone who does not even have an email address? The vehicle owner uses the Dually to tow "Toys" to some remote areas. I'm thinking the vehicle owner wants any available "Scan Tool Technician" to be able to help, should a problem occur. I'm always willing to share the information from a tune, unless otherwise requested not to.

    dave w
    Last edited by dave w; 01-13-2012 at 06:53 AM.

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