Help with VE tables. Only been tuning for a week or so..

[fasteddi]

Well i think sometime when i get a chance tommorow ill go out and plug the chip i burned earlier where the idle table is changed, I added some fuel to the 800 1000 and 1200 RPM/ and 25-50kpa cells. I looked over the loggs and thats about the boundys of the idle. When im idleing in gear is that still on the idle VE table, since im still idleing but now i am in gear with the brake on?? I would think theres a load on the motor when idleing in gear with the brake on, so that BLM i read should be assesed on the Main VE.

I understand that tuning in different outdoor temps will change the tune as tempetures change but in your opinion can i still tune my car when its 30 degrees out and have a tune that will be close when its 70 degrees out?? Mainly the closed loop/crusing tuning. The WOT will be a process ill look at closer to spring since i have no WB 02 sensor and guage.

[dave w]

When an engine is idling in gear the Kpa will change due to the load, the ECM will keep the in gear RPM about the same as idling in park / neutral. The best way I've figured out to keep weather conditions from affecting the tune is to use "Closed Loop" data only. Most all the computer parameters are based on having the VE Tables averaging 128.

dave w

[lightning-jr]

I havent had any cold start issues at all so thats a time saver....Ok when i change the idle tables should i change the corrisponding cells on the main VE tables also??

I look at it this way, the tables need to meet in order to (smooth transition) maintain precision, avoiding large jumps or more erratic PW.

The latest EBL firmware seems to do it for me...or it's just become robotic lol.

[EagleMark]

Well i think sometime when i get a chance tommorow ill go out and plug the chip i burned earlier where the idle table is changed, I added some fuel to the 800 1000 and 1200 RPM/ and 25-50kpa cells. I looked over the loggs and thats about the boundys of the idle. When im idleing in gear is that still on the idle VE table, since im still idleing but now i am in gear with the brake on?? I would think theres a load on the motor when idleing in gear with the brake on, so that BLM i read should be assesed on the Main VE.

I understand that tuning in different outdoor temps will change the tune as tempetures change but in your opinion can i still tune my car when its 30 degrees out and have a tune that will be close when its 70 degrees out?? Mainly the closed loop/crusing tuning. The WOT will be a process ill look at closer to spring since i have no WB 02 sensor and guage.

When an engine is idling in gear the Kpa will change due to the load, the ECM will keep the in gear RPM about the same as idling in park / neutral. The best way I've figured out to keep weather conditions from affecting the tune is to use "Closed Loop" data only. Most all the computer parameters are based on having the VE Tables averaging 128.

dave w

I agree with Dave about idle changing cells if in park/neutral or gear it would still be idle table. Once TPS position moves, probably a scaler with amount it would go to main VE.

[EagleMark]

I look at it this way, the tables need to meet in order to (smooth transition) maintain precision, avoiding large jumps or more erratic PW.

The latest EBL firmware seems to do it for me...or it's just become robotic lol.

So EBL is becoming self sufficient? Auto Tune?

[lightning-jr]

I'm interested in SA learn...knock based algorithm...

Edit: You gotta get one soon...you'll shzit when you see w/what a C3 can do.

[fasteddi]

Ok im getting irritated that my BLM #'s are so high at idle. Ive played with the idle table for 3 chips and cant budge it and i added alot of fuel. Any ideas on what else to do and its in closed loop. Do those idle ## really need to be at 128 or is 138 ok for just ideling for gas savings just like the deacceleration mode where the ecu takes fuel out while coasting to a stop.? Heres another quick log really i drove it just to see the idle #'s If you watch the last few seconds of the log i would rev the rpms up to about 2k and it would still have high BLMs My history table and average running table wouldnt be so bad if it wasent adding the high BLM #'s from the idleing and when i reved the motor up at then end. Still needs work but seems everytime i play with the values i get one better but mess another up.

[dave w]

Sometimes I need close to 20 chips to get the BLM's averaging correctly. Sometimes when I'm working with BLM's, the adjacent cells are causing the cell that is being adjusted to be lean / rich no matter how many times I change the values. Try increasing / decreasing the VE values of the cells near the cells that are problematic. Usually when I get BLM's of 135 ~ 128 / 121 ~ 128, the Integrator will compensate enough for good drive-ability . Typically, I will use the Excel spreadsheet to fine tune the BLM's from 121 ~ 135. Sometimes, the best possible tune will be with BLM's between 121 ~ 135 in a few cells. Usually I place a high priority on getting the Idle VE BLM's as close to 128 as possible. Overall, drive-ability at idle very important when considering, idling at stop lights, idling during stop and go driving during rush hour traffic.

dave w

[EagleMark]

I'll look through your log again to try and help.... but..... do you happen to have an exhaust leak anywhere from head to past the O2 sensor?

I know you changed cam, had an IAC issue which could have been a vacuum leak... have you done a thorough vacuum leak test?

If you have a vacuum leak it will let in air, un accounted for air, and make the O2 sensor think it's lean and add fuel even if it's rich...

Bigger cams also can through off an O2 sensor reading so it adds fuel when it does not need it. In cases like this you need to run open loop idle and tune it.

Do you have a vacuum gauge? What's the reading at warmed up idle? Is it steady?

[EagleMark]

You've been adding fuel to idle and no changes? Still lean?

What's your cam specs @.050, should be on your cam card.

Again what is vacuum reading at idle?

This is a MAF system?

[fasteddi]

My cam is 209.6 Durration at .050 intake/.429 lift
212.1 Durration at .050 Exhaust/.436 llift
111.9 lobe Separation.

It is a speed density sysyem. Not MAF

The vaccum is about.. 10 inches.. I know thats kindof low. Thats at the end of a data log when i checked it. So the car was 180# temp. When idleing it will go from 9.5 inches to 10.25 inches, it has a little choppy idle, but nothing like a big V8 cam.

Yea ive added a good 10 to every cell that it idles in just to see if i could get the BLM to move, and it moved mabey 2# in the BLM. But the int#s are where there suppose to be 130.

Ive done a good vaccum leak test spraying starting fluid and listing for the RPMS to move. Ill go do it again though and see if i overlooked any. I also have no exhaust leaks I made sure that i fixed any possible ones when i re-assembled the engine from when i ported the heads and added that cam. Its really easy to hear a V6 exhaut leak.


When the car is in open loop it does smell rich at idle, and im sure its lean at WOT in PE mode. But when its closed loop you can go smell the exhaust and there is no smell of gas what so ever compared to the open loop idle where the exhaust fumes will burn your eyes..

[fasteddi]

Well son of a &*^%$ I found a vaccum leak. Not relly sure exactly where it is but when i sprayed the front middle intake with the starting fluid the rpms changed. Im thinking i need to rip of the top plentum and middle plentum which has the fuel rail attatched to it and start over on assembling it. Theres too much stuff to know exactly where the leak is.. Also i was told to disable the EGR and the CCP while tuning the VE tables... So i got to fix that leak first before I attempt to tune anymore.

[EagleMark]

Yes, you have to fix the vacuum leak! Then start tuning from stock bin again... that cam will idle much higher vacuum!

But glad you found it because you will never get the tune right with it. You will probably notice not all plugs reading are the same either as a couple cylinders are lean from vacuum leak causing O2 to add fuel to all...

[fasteddi]

Found the leak easily.... I, dont laugh, forgot to put one bolt in the middle intake that attatches to the lower intake. When i put my finger on the hole i could feel the vaccum and was relieved i found it but was mad that i did that when i put the motor back together. But i did assemble the motor all back together in like 8 hours and it was bare, long block only with trans hooked up.

I recorded the vaccum at idle and warmed up at 11.5 inches and up to 12 inches. Is that better? Its about 2 inches more now then before i fixed the leak. I think stock on these 3.1L V6's is arround 15 inches, but i did port the heck out of the heads and all the intakes also...

[fasteddi]

Also the KPA now is 38-39 and the kpa before the fix was 33-34. I just sprayed the crap out of the motor with carb cleaner, no bog , no drop in rpms.