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Thread: Help with VE tables. Only been tuning for a week or so..

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! fasteddi's Avatar
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    Help with VE tables. Only been tuning for a week or so..

    Ok Ive got a 1991 3.1L V6 Camaro Auto(730 ECU) that i recently put a larger cam 260 delta re-grind, ported the heads heavly and also all the intakes/TB.
    Ive been data logging and re-burned 2 chips so far but could use a little help if possible on getting these VE tables set up first. Seems like I fix one area only to mess up another. The BLM #'s were absolutly horrible when i first started datalogging since the cam messed with the vaccume (MAP) Ive mad a little progress here and there, but well its flustrating.

    I attatched a recent data log, it wasent for very long but ive been dealing with a IAC error that i finally got rid of. Any help or advice is great!!
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I'm really happy we got a good adx for you! Thanks for working with me so I can learn to get it right! I changed a few things, so download $88-V.21 below. It now has Engine data list view so you can see all engine data same time. Separate Error codes and the old default view. You can adjust these to how you want. It's a great feature of TP. The monitor is also set with things I like to watch...

    Your also still showing only like 173 degrees totally warmed up? Should be a little higher if you have a 180 thermostat. Would be about right if you have a 160, but that means other changes in bin to start so engine knows it's at full temp at lower setting. I don't know your bin or what to look for there?

    Your not going to get good BLM readings to adjust VE tables because you keep dropping out of closed loop for no reason? You may have a bad O2 sensor or loose wire? Play back the log you posted and open list view for Engine Data, open Monitor, play log. Click back and forth from Monitor to List view at these times and you will see. Look at time frame at 06, 106, 138, 319, 446 and several others and you are going open loop. When you go open loop your BLM is OFF/Not Correct. So you are not getting a good average to adjust with.

    HTH!
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    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I also fixed the website so you can upload xdl TunerPro Data Log files now without being zipped, I thought it was done... till I tried to give MudBuggy one...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    I've looked at the data log posted.

    What a can of worms!

    I looked at the Overall closed loop BLM average; 121 = rich
    I looked at the Overall closed loop Integrator average; 124 = rich

    Normally I would lower the BPW / Raise Injector Flow, but the idle BLM is about 148 = lean. So lowering the BPW / Raising Injector Flow would make the idle BLM EXTREMELY LEAN!

    I would raise only the VE number on VE Cells 800 RPM / 45 , 50, 55 Kpa by 16%. (148/128=1.16)

    For example if VE Cell 800 RPM / 45 Kpa is currently 53.46. I would multiply 53.46x1.16=62.01 and change VE Cell 800 RPM / 45 Kpa to 62.01
    For example if VE Cell 800 RPM / 50 Kpa is currently 57.57. I would multiply 57.57x1.16=66.78 and change VE Cell 800 PPM / 50 Kpa to 66.78

    I'd log again, and verify the BLM averages for the idle VE Cells that were corrected changed from about 148 BLM average to about 128 BLM average.

    VE tuning is really an exersize in Math!

    dave w
    Last edited by dave w; 12-31-2011 at 08:46 AM.

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    Fuel Injected! fasteddi's Avatar
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    Ok im going to first try to find and change the values for the fully warmed up temp in the bin, then check the o2 sensor and make sure its ok also i have a new spare one to throw in there in case, then hopefully that all works out then run another log and if its the same values as the first one ill change the values that were stated in the post above me.

    Thanks, you think this data logg was a can of beans you should have seen the first few!

    After i get a datalog the way i like it with the car up to temp easier and closed loops staying intact ill upload the datalog so i can get further input. Thanks everyone as this is really new to me!

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    Fuel Injected! fasteddi's Avatar
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    Heres the latest log. The attatchmen manager said i exceeded the files size so i put it in a zip folder.....I seeemd to get the BLM ave. a little better, i changed the temp threshholds on the bin to a lower one but couldnt figure out the open/closed loop twitch problem. Any ideas? I tryied a brand bew 02 sensor i had and still went to open loop every now and again while logging. I need to work on the idle tables still
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I increased the xdl size so that should not be an issue anymore.

    Maybe your ECM/PCM is supposed to go open loop once in awhile? I'm not that familiar with it. Maybe it has an air pump coming on? Or do you have headers and a unheated O2 sensor in collector getting cold? But I did notice when it went open loop, for no apparent reason your BLM also changed, then went back to normal/where it was. That is why I mentioned it...

    When I have time later I'll take a look again. didn't here any complaints on the adx so I'm guessing you get good connection and data first shot?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    I've looked at the data log posted.

    What a can of worms!

    VE tuning is really an exersize in Math!

    dave w
    He's getting closer but I think the open loop numbers are messing up his overall BLM numbers he is adjusting with? Running minimum and running maximum are so far apart? Yet history average is getting closer each time... I'm really not sure...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    Fuel Injected! fasteddi's Avatar
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    Yea I disabled the AIR system threshhold temp the 151c since i do not have it anymore. I dont have headers, it was a littler rainy out earlier, you think that water can splash up and hi the sensor and pipe, cooling it down for a split second?? Theres no heater on the 02 sensor, just one wire. I know i need to get a wideband asap for the WOT tuning. The adx file connects every time with no problem at all. Im going to change a few cells and log one more time today then i gotta go to work. ill post the file in its full xdl format. Thanks again!

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I'm just not sure why it goes open loop like that? Maybe it should in your ECM/mask. Your numbers are getting closer, but in this case I don't think I would use the overall history average. Maybe clear BLM history and do a run and use Most recent Sample to adjust VE... rinse and repeat!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    Fuel Injected! fasteddi's Avatar
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    Ok ill do that, look at the recent average, that might help me a little. Question though, when its in closed loop idleing at a stop it is really lean, like 135-140BLM. Do i use the idle table or main table for this application??? Thanks! Here it the last log ill be able to do today, seems a little better... starting tommorow its suppose to be alot colder here, like 25 or so outside...is that too cold to data log, figured it would throw off MAT.
    ?? The last few days its been 45 or so degrees outside.
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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    I'm working on a '0411 harness most of the day today. I don't have much spare time to look at a data log. I export the data log into excel, and sort the open loop / closed loop data. I also use excel to round the Kpa's and RPM's to get the best possible VE table data. Using excel is time consuming, but extremely accurate! I typically use the history table to get the VE close, then finish the VE tuning with excel. I've seen some ECM go into Open Loop Idle. I'm not sure if the $88 has parameters for Open Loop Idle? Cold weather of 25 degrees or so is really an opportunity to get the cold start parameters set.

    dave w

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fasteddi View Post
    Ok ill do that, look at the recent average, that might help me a little. Question though, when its in closed loop idling at a stop it is really lean, like 135-140BLM. Do i use the idle table or main table for this application??? Thanks! Here it the last log ill be able to do today, seems a little better... starting tomorrow its suppose to be alot colder here, like 25 or so outside...is that too cold to data log, figured it would throw off MAT.
    ?? The last few days its been 45 or so degrees outside.
    His going open loop is not at idle, it's at times there is no reason for? May be the cold weather and O2 sensor cooling as it always jumps back.

    Yes use the idle table for adjusting Idle VE. Then main table probably overlaps and tune that with driving data.

    Weather changes, that's why a perfect 128 today may not be tomorrow. Close to 128 is good. Like Dave said cold weather is a good time to adjust cold start parameters if you are having issues with cold start, if not leave it alone. If you do make a change you only get one chance the next morning to see how it responds. Cold start tuning issues do take days to work out because of this...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  14. #14
    Fuel Injected! fasteddi's Avatar
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    I havent had any cold start issues at all so thats a time saver....Ok when i change the idle tables should i change the corrisponding cells on the main VE tables also??

  15. #15
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    We will see what someone more familar with overlapping tables says? In theory no. Idle table is Idle and if the table overlaps to main you are not idling you are driving so there is a load. The ECM will switch tables based on TPS position. So that is back to where Dave has pointed out he sorts data from idle to off idle to make calculations for each table.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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