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Thread: Anyone worked with the 16196397 yet?

  1. #46
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    time for a big post.... this is the last of the hardware data I can generate before sending this off into the postal system once again. i'll have to finish everything up once I have a proper one in my hands. oddly enough, this 93 unit isn't missing much from the 94-95 from what I can tell... I really don't know what that version would have changed/added for the FWD cars or the manual f-bodies. I'm almost certain I could flash a 94-95 program into it and have it function normally in a non-4L60E application.



    looks like mux'ing in more a/d channels might be pretty easily done. the e-side channel 4 appears to be unused in the code, though oddly also connected to the T-side as channel 5... could just add in a 4051(since that is what the delco-numbered mux appears to be) and instead of having 1 or 2 usable channels that may require reconfiguring the pullup/down resistors to use anyways, you'll end up with 8 that can be wired any way you see fit. something as nuts as an additional 4 MAP sensors and 3 temp sensors to continuously monitor can calculate:

    barometric pressure and ambient temp
    MAP sensor between air filter and inlet of turbo/supercharger to measure filter restriction
    MAP sensor and temp sensor after outlet of super/turbo
    temp sensor and MAP installed post-intercooler

    then your existing MAP/temp sensor installed in the intake(though most applications don't have the IAT installed as a MAT, it's an example).

    with all of those sensors, you could continuously monitor and calculate compressor and cooler efficiency, which is...... excessive to the point of obsessive. but that is the goal though, right?


    two of the previously unidentified chips appear to be 28-pin surface-mounted quad/output drivers? I've never seen this before to my knowledge. the 16132083 controls fan1, fan2, the p/n output(used on some cars for chime/autolocking since their shifter position switch didn't have that provision, which is weird), and an unused output on pin B17. the 16084368 chip controls the check gauges lamp(l/n cars only, I think), the SES, cruise-inhibit signal and an unused output on B9. those account for the outputs that aren't attached to the normal ZIP-15 packaged quad drivers, so I now believe have all of the existing I/O circuits identified. on the T-side, I have all but 2 ICs identified, 1 of which I'm certain is a logic gate, the other is attached to it and not much else obvious.



    stuff I need to change in the post above:

    the 56597(both of them) appears to be the equivalent of the P4 timer chip, so I'm going to refer to it as the P6 timer chip.
    U13 (129170 CP03597) is more or less a dedicated injector controller.... the pinout is somewhat like the late 80s/early 90s 3800SFI injector controller chip.
    U18 and U19 are the quad/output drivers I mentioned earlier.
    31 M32AD 41398 connected to pin 15 on 27474(E-side)



    and for new stuff:

    quad drivers:
    U27
    1 - pin 51 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A16 (3-2 DOWNSHIFT SOLENOID)
    2 - pin 51 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A16 (3-2 DOWNSHIFT SOLENOID)
    3 - pin 3 of U23(T-side AND gate)
    A15 (TCC)
    4 - pin 27 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A14 (LOW OIL LAMP)
    U28
    1 - pin 52 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A13 (TCC PWM)
    2 - pin 52 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A13 (TCC PWM)
    3 - pin 12 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A12 (SHIFT SOLENOID B)
    4 - pin 13 of U24(T-side 56597)
    A11 (SHIFT SOLENOID A)
    U32
    1 - pin 3 of U1(E-side 16126532)
    B13 (EGR 3)
    2 - pin 3 of U1(E-side 16126532)
    B13 (EGR 3)
    3 - pin 4 of U1(E-side 16126532)
    B12 (EGR 2)
    4 - pin 5 of U1(E-side 16126532)
    B11 (EGR 1)
    U34
    1 - pin 20 of U2(E-side 56597)
    B6 (A/C CLUTCH)
    2 - pin 50 of U2(E-side 56597)
    B5 (UNUSED)
    3 - pin 49 of U2(E-side 56597)
    B4 (CCP)
    4 - pin 51 of U2(E-side 56597)
    B3 (AIR PUMP)



    u18: output driver?
    1 middle 26
    2 b2(fan1)
    3 ?
    4 b1(fan2)
    5 g
    6 g
    7 g
    8 g
    9 g
    10 g
    11 g
    12 b18(p/n output)
    13 ?
    14 b17(unused)
    15 ?
    16 pin 49 U24(T-side 56597)
    17 middle 23
    18 pin 43 U24(T-side 56597)
    19 g
    20 g
    21 g
    22 g
    23 g
    24 g
    25 g
    26 + power
    27 middle 24
    28 middle 25

    u19: output driver?
    1 ?
    2 b8(check guages light)
    3 ?
    4 b7(ses)
    5 g
    6 g
    7 g
    8 g
    9 g
    10 g
    11 g
    12 b9(unused)
    13 ?
    14 b10(cruise inhibit)
    15 ?
    16 pin 11 U24(T-side 56597)
    17 pin 26 U24(T-side 56597)
    18 pin 43 U24(T-side 56597)
    19 g
    20 g
    21 g
    22 g
    23 g
    24 g
    25 g
    26 + power
    27 inside 21
    28 pin 25 U24 (T-side 56597)



    BACK TO E-SIDE:

    Code:
    address/data bus:
     6811 37414 56597 16126532
    A0 58 20 44 20
    A1 57 22 45 22
    A2 56 23 46 23
    A3 55 24 47 24
    A4 54 25 - 25
    A5 53 26 - 26
    A6 52 27 - 27
    A7 51 28 - 28
    A8 50 29 - 29
    A9 49 31 - 30
    A10 48 30 - *
    A11 47 32 - 32
    A12 46 33 - 33
    A13 45 34 - 34
    A14 44 35 - 35
    A15 43 36 - 36
    D0 9 18 42 18
    D1 10 17 41 17
    D2 11 16 40 16
    D3 12 15 39 15
    D4 13 14 38 14
    D5 14 13 37 13
    D6 15 12 36 12
    D7 16 11 35 11
    * = CONNECTED TO U12 PIN 13. U12 PIN 12 IS CONNECTED WHERE EXPECTED. 56597-15 IS RELATED AS WELL

    CSIO2 connected to 37414-42
    CSIO1 connected to 37414-43
    CSGEN connected to 56597-48
    CSPRG connected to PROM-22






    I need to figure out how to format all of this to make it less ridiculous to try and read. maybe i'll just upload the .txt if I can't figure it out in a normal post.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  2. #47
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    This is an awesome amount of data. I am going to try to trace through my 6397 here and find the A/D outputs that you have listed, see if I can lift the pullup/pulldown resistors and reconfigure it as a "normalized" 0-5V standard analog input for WBO2 monitoring. I just got home from the gulf coast so I'll get those comparison shots of the internals of a 4737 and 6397 today and get them posted up here, hopefully that helps some.

  3. #48
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    Been going over the one stripped apart on my desk, here's what I am seeing:

    IRF9395 INJECTOR DRIVERS
    8.388MHZ CRYSTAL
    MISSING: U14 AND 2 LARGE TRANSISTORS
    missing transistor closest to knock filter controls pin C5, other controls C6, these are PCS high and PCS low. <--Pretty sure these are missing on my 6397 as well.

    6811 A/D:
    0 - battery volts
    1 - right/rear O2
    2 - left/front O2
    3 - TPS
    4 - pin A28(1K pulldown, 10K isolation)<--This is totally workable.
    5 - IAT
    6 - a/d mux chip's output
    7 - MAP

    Got anything to get me closer to locating the 1K pulldown and 10K isolation resistors for AD4? I am looking, hunting, probing, and am not seeing yet. It has been years since I did this level of hunt-and-peck, I've lost my eyes.

  4. #49
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    some stuff is in non-sensical locations... most of them are channels have their R/C filtering components fairly close together though, when you find one, you'll find all of them. I seem to remember a cluster of caps/resistors for the e-side a/d channels on the other side of the board, right under/around the 6811. I did all of the e-side stuff first though.... I can vividly remember where everything is for the t-side stuff, but E is a little shaky.

    A28 does seem like it would work without any changes. A4 on the mux'd A/D circuit looks like it should also work.

    I'll work on pulling the best of the images I have along with a mspaint masterpiece of my chip name assignments.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  5. #50
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    so, I'm blind. these images looked in-focus through the viewfinder of the SLR, turns out I really, REALLY need to go have my lens prescription updated. autofocus doesn't appear to like many-faceted reflective surfaces, so I had to go about it manually. combine that with a 1.8 aperture and things can get messy at times. these are the best of the groups that I shot.

    all of the images should be in the same orientation as the mspaint outline, at least the chip-sides are. on the reverse side of the board, obviously there is going to be a horizontal flip, but it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  6. #51
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    i can't figure out how to reasonably format the text in the posts either, so here is the .txt version. should be a little easier to read considering how many Tabs I put into my documents.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  7. #52
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    Back in the workshop tonight.

    Since the heads needed a valve job anyway, I set the flow bench up in %Flow and started working on the intake port. I still don't have my calibrated venturis made, so I can only measure gains against the fixed orifice plate. I have what the stock heads flowed on a different bench on a different day, but using a clean valve and clean stock port, on the factory valve job, I set a baseline, then worked the port to produce a fair increase in flow while only removing 2.1CC's of material. Low-lift flow didn't suffer any, flow at 0.250" lift picked up 14%, and flow at 0.500" lift picked up 16%. Port is a little howly at 0.500" lift. At 0.550" lift it is louder, same pitch, and flow only picks up about 4% over stock. At least it didn't loose any! Stock, the port was quiet at all lifts. I did not open the gasket face of the port up any at all, MCSA is unchanged from stock. Mostly reduced and re-shaped the valve guide boss, the rest of the port just needed a little cleaning up of casting flaws around the valve seat. Port hasn't been cartridge-rolled yet, so it's right off the carbide. I didn't nick up the stock seats, so this is all on a stock valve job so far. The combustion chamber needs some attention, lots of sharp edges left over from the factory seat cutter, basically a sharp ring all the way round the valve on the intake. Exhaust valve has a nice smooth cut though, on most of the chambers. I will clean off the sharp edge and that's it for the chamber.







    Found out that Comp Cams PN 26986 springs will fit the stock seats/seals/retainers, which is nice. They seem to be a universal spring with a 1" ID and 1.45" OD at the base, and with the 0.650" ID at the top, LS1-style retainers work too. PAC-1286 is the same spring, Scorpion Racing SRP-1286 is the same spring. I am calling PSI springs tomorrow to see what they got. The Comp springs are slightly over budget at this point, but something will have to happen, as the stock springs checked out all over the place for spring rate...out of 12 springs, the deviation from mean was 22%.

    I asked about the resistors as I am trying to work out how they're arranged...is it a series 10K with a 1K pulldown on the 68HC11 side or a 1K pulldown on the outside-world side?

  8. #53
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    going off of memory, it's going to be something like:

    sensor signal wire->pulldown resistor->isolation resistor->A/D pin

    most of the a/d channels have a cap after the isolation resistor to form a RC low-pass filter, but I don't believe that I found one with the A28 circuit, but I did with the A4.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  9. #54
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    Do the existing O2 sensor lines have that low pass filter circuit?

    I just checked my A28, it doesn't appear to have a cap in place either. Only need one of these to be suitable, I know an Innovate LC1/LC2 can source enough to drive most A/D inputs, just have to work out what the logged values would be. In this case, A28 will likely need that 1K pullup removed and reconfigured for a 10k/10k voltage divider, good medium impedance input but still a 1:1 ratio-simple 0-255 range over which to work a 0-5V logged voltage. Wideband O2 fueling control isn't really needed if it's being logged.

    You seem to have A28 listed as connected to E-side 68HC11 channel 4, as well as T-side mux channel 5. Is that correct?
    Last edited by Xnke; 08-11-2015 at 03:10 AM.

  10. #55
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    i would be surprised if it were setup any differently than how it is on every other GM ECM:



    since O2LO is tied to ground, the cap running from O2HI to O2LO after a 100 ohm resistor is a RC low-pass circuit. without knowing the value of the cap, hard to say what it allows though.

    A28 should be a pulldown, not a pullup? it's possible I stuck my probe onto a 5V reference pad and saw no resistance, but I'm fairly certain I just used the gigantic ground planes to be certain. as-is, a 1K pulldown with a 0-5V signal will draw up to 5mA, I would think that would already be well within the wideband controller's capabilities? a 10K would obviously bring it down to .5mA peak.

    with the pulldown being where it is in relation to the isolation resistor, it isn't going to form a voltage divider, if that's what you're thinking.

    I do remember A28 being a weird setup.... as if the factory intended to use it for something but dropped it for production vehicles. the code never references using that channel on either PROM, so what exactly was going to be done with it, I don't know. considering that there was barely enough space left on the T-side to perform an A/D conversion, I get the feeling that there was either a 64KB PROM on at least the T-side at one point(I never check to see if the PROM's pin 3 trace was broken out or not), or it was being used as an engineering-specific extra a/d channel... no idea what they would have used it for though.

    something I'm remembering at the moment is that for GM MAP sensors, there is supposed to be a 50 or 51K pulldown for the A/D channel, though I couldn't say why(a guess would be due to the MAP sensor itself being fairly high impedance), it's just something I'm remembering seeing on the datasheet for one of them. something to keep in mind should a baro sensor route be taken.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  11. #56
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    It's funny you mention the PROM size, as both my 4347 and 6397 have 256K chips fitted to the board. What's limiting the program size?

    Yes, the widebands I am familiar with will drive a 5mA load, but I generally try not to ask much of the sensors I can't control-with so many wideband controllers out there, some of them may not drive a 5mA sink.

    I'll do a little more digging around on the board before I close up the 6397 case, make sure things are working the way I'd need them to and confirm with you that A28 is a viable input for a wideband logging input.

    EDIT: It looks like on the 6397, at least in a main-power-off state, that a 0-5V input results in a 0.9 to 1.5v change on pin AD4 on the E-side MCU. That's good enough for me, I believe that logging and reporting the voltage on that pin could be used to monitor AFR. Is there enough room left in the program to log 0 to 255ADC count as a linear 10.0 to 20.0 AFR? That would work out as a simple 0-5V wideband input, usable by most brands of WB02 controller out there.
    Last edited by Xnke; 08-11-2015 at 10:55 AM.

  12. #57
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    address pin 15 could be brought over to the PROM pretty easily, but then 2 other obstacles are left: flashing program would need changed to account for a 64KB PROM on at least the T-side and then would need to make sure that the aux chips that the T-side accesses over the parallel address/data bus wouldn't be effectively disabled with the new PROM's addressing space. logic gates/address decoders would probably be ideal here, I can't remember how much control the 6811 has over its CS circuits.... probably not enough to do it through code alone.

    that's really about it.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    EDIT: It looks like on the 6397, at least in a main-power-off state, that a 0-5V input results in a 0.9 to 1.5v change on pin AD4 on the E-side MCU.
    you might need to elaborate a bit here... are you saying minimum voltage achieved was .9 and maximum was 1.5?



    also, did some simulating of the MAP sensor, I see why the ECM uses a 51K pulldown for them now... other values cause the sensor linearity to suffer. with a 1K pulldown, it was rather interesting charting out pot position vs what the a/d converter saw.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  14. #59
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    playing with the sim, assuming a 3-terminal sensor(essentially a pot), if the pulldown resistance actually has a HUGE effect on the signal the a/d converter sees. using a 5K pot with 5 volt reference with a 5K pulldown, center voltage is 2.0.

    with a 10K pulldown, 2.22 volts.
    20K pulldown: 2.35
    50K: 2.44
    100K: 2.47
    200K: 2.48
    300K: 2.49

    to get back to 2.50 volts(rounding to the 1/100ths digit): you need to use a 624K(or greater) pulldown.

    considering the a/d converter has a resolution of ~.02 volts, that 200K pulldown is pretty safe. response at the a/d converter is extremely linear everywhere through the range as well.

    now, this was with a sensor that has 5K of impedance end to end. with a 1K pot, the same trend of needing a pulldown with 40 times the impedance of the sensor itself to keep with .02 volts of accurate through the full range seems to work here as well.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  15. #60
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    alright, got a VERY clean looking 6397 coming in from California for $13.97/shipped. they even included a picture of the p/n sticker, has a BPJH calibration though I don't have a cross-reference for what that could be(and the lower/tearaway half of the sticker is gone), have to pull communicate with it over ALDL and check the part number that way.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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