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Thread: Anyone worked with the 16196397 yet?

  1. #16
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    Does the code have to do baro updates *while driving*? Just have it do the baro lookup on ECM-on, engine-off on startup, that seems to be effective enough for a LOT of other control computers-Megasquirt and Motec included.

    I had initially planned on a full-pneumatic method for the boost bypass valve, that's what I use on the datto. It is "OK", but not great for street driving. It results in a non-intuitive engine response, which is...interesting. Roll on the throttle a normal amount and it makes 120-130kpa from 1500 to 3000RPM, but then once you're rolling a steady 3000RPM it vents the boost with a Whoosh-hiss, and you're driving on the very loud bypass. This gets irritating at highway cruise. (it's loud because the intake mods I did effectively remove all the sound baffling from the supercharger.) Toe in it slightly, it kicks the bypass valve closed and you're on boost, 155kpa at the current drive ratio. The blower is ported to be turned a LOT faster-target is 200kpa while keeping IAT's under 120F. It's balanced at a bad spot, as under cruise conditions the pneumatics tend to throw boost at you while holding a constant throttle position as the loading of the engine changes due to hills or even headwind/tailwind. I'll add an output the the MS2-Extra controlling that car at some point to drive the valve.

    I am now considering using one of the EGR solenoid outputs, as it isn't looking like EGR is going to be a priority to keep-I wanted to keep it for the highway mileage advantage but it's easy enough to dispense with and just run a slightly different cam profile to obtain low-throttle EGR. IIRC the L67 uses a simple on-off method of boost control, so the EGR solenoid should have no problem with the L67-style boost control valve. This is the "preferred" method, as I can "lock out" the supercharger under highway cruise.

    As far as the belt drive, that I won't be able to make progress on until I get the block back from the machine shop and get the heads dummied up with the complete camaro accessory drive in place. It is looking like I will have plenty of room to add a pair of idlers on a "pulley bridge" similar the the supercharged 4.6L ford engines. I'll have to do some finangling with the water neck, but since I am going to run the mechanical fan I was gonna have to do that anyway.

    For the fabrication...I use a 4.5" angle grinder for a LOT of the fine detail work, it's amazing how good of a job can be done with one. I am likely gonna skin the top of the 3500 intake today, and look at what it will take to cram an intercooler down inside it.
    Last edited by Xnke; 07-14-2015 at 10:01 AM.

  2. #17
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    baro updates while running isn't too critical unless you're doing a pikes peak run since the O2 sensor should take care of fueling differences when not leaning too heavily into the throttle, which would also stay in-effect when PE kicks in. otherwise, need to shut the engine off to do a baro update should one be going up and down mountains. I would just bump the max RPM to allow baro updates low enough to where it can't possibly occur during boost. with a roots blower, that seems like it could be fairly low.

    on this PCM, the EGR circuits are fully capable of PWM control at frequencies of 8, 16, 32, 64 or 128Hz(if I'm remembering correctly), though they're only ever used as digital outputs in a factory calibration. I have to open up a PCM of this style(on mine, the torx-head fasteners are corroded in place) and see if the E-side has an open A/D channel that is already connected to the PCM connector, otherwise i'll have to make it so and then the use of the 96+ linear EGR(or even the older EVRV setup) will be possible. that would open up 2 PWM capable outputs while retaining EGR.

    I'm not sure how easy it would be, but I assume the boost solenoid could be played with via a PWM signal that would essentially allow setting a desired boost level. I get the feeling that a very narrow range of duty cycles would be usable though, considering how large the bypass valve is. wouldn't take too much valve angle to completely bleed off pressure under the blower.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  3. #18
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    The PWM of the boost valve doesn't work so well due to it being pneumatically controlled, also since it's a butterfly valve.

    Simple on-off control is pretty OK, that's how the L67's did it. I have two ECU's here, I'll pop one open and have a poke around.

  4. #19
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    Did a bit of work on the intake tonight-can't really go a LOT further til the block is back in my hands, though.

    Started choppin'

    (yep, sawhorses and a board!)



    The three columns in the middle of the plenum meant I had to use a BFH to break up the top of the casting once it was cut, then start chopping the inside of the plenum clean.

    Leftovers...



    Dug through the stock shelf and found some aluminum flat, it'll work. Manifold was NASTY inside, coated in tar.



    Going to run that through the dishwasher a few dozen times, a trip across the belt sander to clean up the front and I'll weld in a bit to close up that hole, and then the new 10mm thick top plate will get welded in place. Will look something like this all done:



    You can see here that I'll have to scallop the top plate to allow the upper intake to bolt to the lower-the M90 blower is almost exactly the same width as the upper intake manifold. I am contemplating just chopping it down to where the bolts currently seat, and welding it on flush. Would be much easier to weld into place, and would solve some other issues, but I would have to buy a longer piece of plate. So that's not gonna happen.



    In other areas, there are some things that are tantalizingly close to correct-the nose drive length and the pulley size, namely. Roughly measuring using bits of the accessory drive show the pulley was within 3mm of being correct just stacking things on the table-I have plenty of room to move it that much-and the drive ratio should give me about 6-8lbs of boost without changing anything.

  5. #20
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    I can't think of too many supercharged 60V6.... let alone one with the blower on top of the UIM. the McGavin Z26 comes to mind though.



    he went a bit nuts in how much of the hood he removed, but I imagine you'll still have to make a noticeable hole yourself?
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  6. #21
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    Nope. If anything, a cheap 2" cowl hood will do the job.

    It's in a gen1 S10 pickup truck, originally was a TBI with the round air cleaner. I'm only an inch taller than the stock aircleaner with the blower in place, although the original air cleaner does show a rub mark on the hood insulator. In the photo below, you notice the coil packs on the firewall, that's about the amount of vertical clearance I'd have at the back of the hood. It does slope down in the front, but not too much-It is entirely possible that I will get the blower low enough to only need to trim the hood braces.

    Six-Shooter will recognize his truck!

    Last edited by Xnke; 07-17-2015 at 12:47 PM.

  7. #22
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    Headed back out to the garage to have a look at this again tonight-Dealt with a 91 cavalier TH125C trans all week and it was a real killer. Engine block will be back end of the week/early next week and I will get the heads dummied up on the block again so I can set the belt drive up. Might just bolt the heads to the intake manifold and the accessory drive to the heads-that will be close enough. I am still working out the two new idler pulleys that will be needed, I'd like to be able to make this a bolt-on application for anything using the 3500 lower and the aluminum heads.

    Exhaust header parts are on the way, 44.6" long tubes mean I need to really scramble to get the driver's side header wrapped under the oil pan and into the merge! I could compromise on a "shorty" design, won't loose much with the blower anyway.

    Engine in the S10 started with a loud tappy-tappy today, signaling the death of wrist pin or possibly two lifters-it is a pronounced double tap and it doesn't appear to be a rod bearing, yet. At 200K miles, combined with a life as a commercial service truck, it has been seriously beaten for most of its life by unsupervised 16-18 year old boys. Still pushes my mechanical test oil pressure gauge to 70PSI at 2000RPM, though.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    I'd like to be able to make this a bolt-on application for anything using the 3500 lower and the aluminum heads.
    undivided attention: you have it.

    is there anything specific about the 3500 LIM and your design that would prevent the large port 3100/3400 lower from working?
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  9. #24
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    So far, no. The 3500 lower is unmodified. As long as the 3500 upper intake will bolt down, the modified upper should fit. I have no idea how I'll do the two new idlers yet though-they have to handle 180-210lbs of force plus the drive horsepower without slacking off.

  10. #25
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    the 3500 upper will attach to the large-port 3100/3400 lower, so that keeps any 60V6 running a gen3 large-port LIM/UIM open.

    if it were 3500 LIM specific, then that would cut out some applications.... the 3500 LIM can only attach to the 3500 heads, which can only be used on 3.4 and 3.5 engines due to bore size/overlap issues on 2.8/3.1 engines. but you probably already knew all of this.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  11. #26
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    Looks like the Camaro accessory drive won't need any idlers-I can get about 170* of belt wrap on the supercharger just by running a longer belt. I haven't looked at the FWD setup, I don't have a FWD car to crib from. Hopefully this week I'll get some other things knocked out and get back on the truck engine.

  12. #27
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    Looks like I have an intercooler solution. Will raise the blower up 30mm, but that is workable-Intercooled is always better.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertISaar View Post

    on this PCM, the EGR circuits are fully capable of PWM control at frequencies of 8, 16, 32, 64 or 128Hz(if I'm remembering correctly), though they're only ever used as digital outputs in a factory calibration. I have to open up a PCM of this style(on mine, the torx-head fasteners are corroded in place) and see if the E-side has an open A/D channel that is already connected to the PCM connector, otherwise i'll have to make it so and then the use of the 96+ linear EGR(or even the older EVRV setup) will be possible. that would open up 2 PWM capable outputs while retaining EGR.
    I have a 4737 Automatic ECU cracked open right now-Where do you need to look? I have done this kind of thing before, but only when I had labeling...I would want to know what ECU pins to look at (I have diagrams but don't know if black/blue/white is A, C, B, ect.)

    Also it appears that the flash chips are both a 28F256 in mine, but there are two MCU's and two flash chips, one on each board.
    Last edited by Xnke; 07-24-2015 at 02:16 PM.

  14. #29
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    A is white/clear
    B is black
    C is blue

    two PROMs/processors is exactly what I would expect, otherwise it wouldn't be a P66 V6.

    I need to find the damaged/disassembled one I have here to confirm, but the side with the knock filter on it should have the blue connector, which should be the E-side, the white/black connector board should be the T-side.

    the T-side should only have the A/D ports built into the microcontroller(8 of them), but the E-side has the micro's 8 and an additional 8 through an auxiliary A/D converter. from what I've determined in the code, the E-side micro A/D channel 4 is open, as is the aux chip's channels 2 and 7. whether they're broken out onto the board or are just dead-end circuits, I don't know. I can't find my hardware disassembly notes that had the part number and pinouts of the aux a/d chip, that would certainly have been helpful about now.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  15. #30
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    OK, so on the E-side controller, the MC68HC11F1 (E87J) in a PLCC68 package is what I'm looking at-initially it appears that Port E0 and Port E4 don't have anything connected to the pins on the board. Pin 59 is PE0/AN0 (A/D channel 0) and pin 60 is PE4/AN4 (A/D channel 4). I'm probing through with a meter looking for any connection to the pins now.

    I am still hunting the A/D chip pinouts.

    On a curious note, what would it take to get this ECU to log a wideband O2 input? I see where it has been done on some of the other PCMs, but while I have this one out of the metal shell, I thought I'd poke around and see if there's room.

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