Bringing TBI and Multi Port Fuel Injection to a New Level.     EFI Conversions and Tuning! Seattle to Portland! E-mail Tuning Consultant!
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 29

Thread: TH400 to 4L80E swap and 1227747 to 16197427 swap

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35

    TH400 to 4L80E swap and 1227747 to 16197427 swap

    I'm going to convert my 87 Chevy 4x4 - 350tbi/t400/np208 over to a 4l80e/np208

    I'm swapping in a 16197427 controller and I believe there was a cal for that ecu and the 4l80e

    My first question would be what year 4l80e transmissions should I be looking at?

    Second question is if I get a 4x4 4l80e do I need to install a speed sensor in the transmission for the ecu and use the current sensor in the t case for the speedo? Or is there better options?

    Thanks for any help you guys can offer

  2. #2
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Fresno, CA
    Posts
    422
    When using the 7427, you'll need a '94 or later 4L80. The '91-93 have a force motor that isn't compatible and would need the '7060 ECM instead. The 4L80 uses two speed sensors (Input Speed & Output Speed). The forward sensor on the transmission is the input speed and the aft one is output. I'm not an expert on them, but I believe you could use either the one on the transmission (assuming it has one, could be blanked off on a 4x4) or the one on the T-case for output speed.

    The speedo output will come off of the VSSB (Vehicle Speed Sensor Buffer). Your '87 probably has a DRAC(instead of VSSB) built into the gauge cluster, I don't recall if that year has a cable drive speedo, but if it does, you'll want to swap it with an electronic speedo. If it's already electronic, there might be a way to use it with the signal from the VSSB, but I'm not sure.
    1973 K-5 Blazer, TBI 350, TH400, 1 ton axles & 38" SSRs'
    1975 280Z, TBI 350, 700R4
    1953 M-38A1, TBI Buick 231
    1951 Ford Panel, 5.3 with 4L80E

  3. #3
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    155

    4L80-E swap

    Worked @ gm as a cal engineer for 4L80-e. I put a L80 in my old 77 crew cab with a BBC HEI and carb, then switch to Port feul injection. I use the 94-2002 old Diesel GM TCM and APU1 cor cal changes.

    Your unit, if I was doing it, I would opt,as stated 94 forward. Personally I would select on and regreen it, (reseal and new clutches). I would not use the aftermarket kits as 75% can be changed in the cal for harder shifts. I would drill out a bit the 2nd, direct or 3rd feed and 4th cl feed. Use all the accum and springs you'll like ti much better later on at light shifts. If you use a early unit 94-? with the big OD roller, replace it and the direct cl sprag and use a 34 element. GM uses these and these companies sell them as a hot part but i'ts really a stock piece. Keep end play tight or on the low end of the spec. You don't need these hi perf cl either.
    I would try to get the unit from 98 up. Why, the center lube or the cooler fitting at the center support nets you 1 to 2 MPG and it has good internal drain back within the case. I use the largest Log Ind cooler or stacked plate. I use a diesel engine oil cooler. Don't use rubber hose ont he cooler. Temps at cooler exit have been measured over 350 deg F Use steel than if you must then to SS Teflon. I used the 3/8 inch steel line and made the fittings a straight 1/4 pipe thread in the case. You can buy them now @ transtar or else where. Use a pan with a drain.
    Electrical: You don't need the TCC brake Sw. Wire the TCC power with the A and B solenoid Sw Ign feed. (The TCC Brk sw does fail and arc) When you lift the throttle TCC will be turned OFF. I ran so many tests @ GM on this. My truck has no TCC Brk Sw. I did wire the Brk Sw light to the TCM but it really don't need it. You will need the DRAC and GM only made two. One with 7 pins and the next gen 14 pins. There's plenty of info to set it up and I have one. My speedo in my 77 is from a late 80's G-Van cluster. I had to cut the back of my && cluster out to fit it but it bolts in and looks stock. Wire it as stock. The 4,000 pulse per mile PPM, I ran a sw. The DRAC has 4 speedo or cruise outputs. 2 4k and 2 2k. So if I sw my speedo to my 2k, it read half and I can run over 85 mph and know how fast the truck is but half mph. If the trans has more than 50k, REPLACE the shift sol with OEM ones. The B fails the most. Why? It spend most of it's time OFF and the captured ball runs around as fluid exhausts and elongates the seat. The cheap ones have weak seats like the early delco sols had.
    You don't need to run hi pressure either.
    There is a trick if you want to know about keeping the engine from stalling. One cal table has steady state pressures. Lower the zero mph / low TPS to 7PTS in the cal. This way the pressure will not push the tcc plate ON and drag it.
    If you drill the clutch feeds you don't need much pres to get a bang shift. If you select a converter I used a 5.7L in my BBC. The converter boys laid it out. the dual stator or single will FEEL faster and is to 25MPH but FAlls off in 0 to 60 MPH and CREATES so much heat that will lower the life. It is still hard to keep it col with the large cooler but it keeps it below 80 deg C TFT sump.
    If you run HI pres and run these HI TCC reg pump springs with a large dia converter you can balloon the shell and push out your crankshaft thrust brg. It's up to you....... I seen these layed out post failure.

    I use DEX 3 and change the ATF each year. Dump the ATF pan and brake clean the filter exterior off and reuse the filter. RE-USE the pan gasket it life is longer then the trans. No real ned for Dex 6 or synthetic I feel. We had RR and bentley use synthetic atf in their cars with 4L80-E and we had to change the main pressure tables because of it. Less amps on the FM to meet the pres requirement. It does make a diff. If I had a 4L60 and used synthetic I'd up the pres overall. It runs low for MPG.
    The OEM filter begins life @ 150 micron size but the target size if close to 40 to 25 microns. When you change the filter you allow the large particles to pass and lodge VB valves or pump valves. Don't use these Cooler Filters. I investigated this for my use. They are small and restrictive as time passes. This restricts the oil that LUBES the gear units., not for mine. I was looking at using a twin filter and A/C PF932 filters. (A PF932 is a log Pf35 for a truck

    1991-1993 4L80-E use a Bosch Force Motor. The unit has a valvebody, spacer plate, Aux VB and FM to the TCM that should stay as a package. There is a requirement the FM run a "cleaning cycle" or run to each end of the D/C to keep it from sticking. The Aux VB has a comp spring to make up the pres loss/gain. If you place a Holley FM (94-2004?) in the 91-93 VB it will not be able to control the pres and run so hi it could break the case @ the 2nd cl lugs. Keep the 91-93 apart from the 94 forward. Holley FM are still ava and the newer Borg-Warner made in Water Valley MS is still ava. It was less $$$ for the FM @ GM I have not looked into the B-W placed into the Holley.

    If the OEM cal does not have the shift adapts ON, I wouldn't use them because in some cases all the s/w may not bee in or it is planed for next year. If you are using xxx PCM, personally I will find the last year it was used. Examine if there were block or hardware changes in engine and trans, if not I use the last yr to gain all the updates in S/w and cal. Such as 1986 F/Y-Car 5.0/5.7L MAF 165. I use the 89 last s/w release cal and s/w. Like the $6E.
    That;s my penny's worth. My 4L80-E works great. Some @ work told me "You can't do that with a carb and HEI" I did in 97.
    Last edited by billygraves; 02-01-2015 at 11:43 AM.

  4. #4
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35
    Thanks for the info.

    Does a 98 4l80e have the same wiring connector as say a 95??

  5. #5
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Fresno, CA
    Posts
    422
    Yep, same connector for a '98.
    1973 K-5 Blazer, TBI 350, TH400, 1 ton axles & 38" SSRs'
    1975 280Z, TBI 350, 700R4
    1953 M-38A1, TBI Buick 231
    1951 Ford Panel, 5.3 with 4L80E

  6. #6
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35
    K I'll look for a 98-99 core. Should be a good place to start.

  7. #7
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    155

    98 99 core

    I suggest you put NEW cooler fittings on the trans. At work, Ypsilanti said clips don't last but one use. I know many many use them over, but it's your trans. They have an O-Ring in it so at 50k,and the temps for cooler out? It's only a few bucks.
    I don't think you can run the 3/8 inch steel with those but I'd still adapt up after the line is outside the unit.
    The tube type coolers are a 1950's technology, the "stacked plate" is much better, an Oil to Water is the most efficient. But where the coolant is placed is the key. Tap a hi output water pump legs to cooler and out back to top of rad or water pump heater return.
    One more. My old 77 I used a solid steel rod with a tube welded to it to couple to the 77 shift rod. The tube I drilled a hole in it and TIG welded a fine thread Grade 8 5/16" nut to it. I took a grade 8 5/16" bolt ground it to a smaller point and tightened it to the 77 shift rod. I fabed my own harness and ran it under the seat with a grommet.
    Finally I saw one case where the owner used the SS rubber 300 deg AN line for the trans cooler. The cooler out had a bend as it left the trans. The rubber eroded and formed a flap cutting off cooler flow or Lube oil. Read the temps and how long on the hose..... If you saw the temps out on OEM cooler you would use steel.

  8. #8
    Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Lakes Region, NH
    Age
    48
    Posts
    2,794
    Watch the aftermarket fittings... they're junk. Local GM dealer is selling someone else's fittings in little baggies with GM number on them. :(

    There's a tool to make the trans quick connect fittings using a hydraulic flaring tool. This means you might be able to find a guy that can form ends for you. My local trans guy found 3/8" inverted flare adapter fittings in someone else's application, iow not GM. Possibly AM General for "real" Humvee?? I may have part numbers around. We were using them in buses until tool became available for quick connect ends. BTW, billygraves, do you know a "real" name for those fittings? We also know to use steel lines here. When high temp paint burns off of cooler lines you know things are hot.

    Old school bus is a great source for 4L80E trans.

  9. #9
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35
    I have access to a hydraulic flaring tool for 1/4 thru 1/2 stainless line. We use Parker fittings on the Trans side. I'll probably going the custom steel line all the way to the cooler. Not sure what cooler I'll put on it yet.

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    155
    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    Watch the aftermarket fittings... they're junk. Local GM dealer is selling someone else's fittings in little baggies with GM number on them. :(

    There's a tool to make the trans quick connect fittings using a hydraulic flaring tool. This means you might be able to find a guy that can form ends for you. My local trans guy found 3/8" inverted flare adapter fittings in someone else's application, iow not GM. Possibly AM General for "real" Humvee?? I may have part numbers around. We were using them in buses until tool became available for quick connect ends. BTW, billygraves, do you know a "real" name for those fittings? We also know to use steel lines here. When high temp paint burns off of cooler lines you know things are hot.

    Old school bus is a great source for 4L80E trans.
    The fittings were "Quick Connect" as I was corrected once. Transtar has listed this for 4L80/85-E:
    Fitting, Cooler Line to Case (Rear) Internal Threads (Eliminates Snap In Fittings).. 2 96-Up 34996EB (transtar P/N).
    http://www.transtar1.com They do sell to most techs. They will send it to your door if you set up an account. Good quality. Dayco converters are pretty good and they stand behind them. Most trans shops I knew in MI used Dayco and Transtar.

    Hummer bought the L80 assembly line. They might use a flair fitting in place of the quick disconnect.
    In the salt bath area, they rot and are horrible (quick connects). Someone makes, or use to, a brass fitting for both front and rear fittings on Center Lube L80's.
    Parker hoses and fittings are the best and reasonable as well. I used Parker on my SS tefon lines. Industrial quality and past the AN alum fittings.

    I found cause VERY unstable line pressure and causes a whine like a converter is about to launch. It has you drill out the bleed hole in the pump at the Pressure Reg line up in the casting. Line pressure is unstable and rise and lower to the point a dampened line pres guage will easily pick it up. Converter whine cold.
    Hi end clutches for a daily driver? I had drag racers use stock 2nd plates in 400's with a trans brake. Read up on David Coan and he leans to the clutch as well. It will take the heat and still hold up.

    Same thing with the 4L60 or 700 3-4 clutches. GM ran multiple tests before developing the 7 plate. They ran the 10 and even 12 plates in the 3-4. The 10 plate set ups will FAIL 100% in the GM test. The steel will not take the heat and fail where the thicker steels will hold up and become the heat sink not causing the paper cl to burn.

    Transtar sells coolers, or use to. I used the Diesel engine oil cooler. 12 x 12 x 1.5" thick with 1/2 pipe thread ends. Largest at the time. I know of a great cooler. I use this in my Vega drag race car. I left at 5,600 RPM on the converter using a trans brake. ATI converter. Coan TB. I thermocoupled the deep GM Steel pan. On a 95 degree sunny day, I hot lapped the car and the highest the ATF rose to was 168 deg F. I used a 89 F-car rad with two F-car fans. Mounted the Trans cooler in frt of the second fan. Had half the grill blocked off I never changed the fluid and I ran a Dacron filter. I lined the pan with magnets. I used the green plates in the direct and stock paper with wave in forward and 2nd. Upshifts were at 7,000
    Last edited by billygraves; 02-01-2015 at 06:42 PM.

  11. #11
    Fuel Injected! EDZIP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Champlain, NY
    Age
    66
    Posts
    267
    FYI only..had this site bookmarked:

    How to Control a 4l80E with a GM 16197427 ECM

    http://mattw.dyndns.org/4L80E/

  12. #12
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35
    Friend of mine has a 06 he said he'll give me. Is this something I can use or is there a cut off on the years I can control with the 7427 ecu

  13. #13
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35
    I picked up a 2004 4l80e with convertor last night.

    Would I be better running a 16196395 ecu since that's what came in the 94-95 350tbi trucks with a 4l80e or will the 16197427 work just fine. I have a 7427 ecu I just need the Eprom for it. Already have the moates adapter and a apu1

  14. #14
    Fuel Injected! brian617's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Arkansas
    Age
    39
    Posts
    520
    No difference in those PCMs, either one will run $OD $OE $E6 or $31.
    89 K1500 Scottsdale 5.7L 5spd 3:42

    Build specs: 97 4 bolt main block 350ci, Eagle rotating assembly with flat tops and 4 valve reliefs, Dart 165cc/67cc Iron Eagle heads, Manely SS valves and springs 110lbs seat @1.7, GM Ram Jet cam 196/206 @.50 .431/.451, stock intake and throttle body, heads and intake gasket matched, Delco EP377 fuel pump @ 22 psi, 427 PCM.

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Age
    42
    Posts
    35
    Cool. Does it matter what eprom I buy to work with the adapter? Like does it have to be of the same base bin I plan on using??

Similar Threads

  1. ECU Swap On 1991 TBI 454 / 4L80E
    By X-cabsquarebody in forum GM EFI Systems
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 1 Week Ago, 04:28 PM
  2. Replies: 64
    Last Post: 04-21-2017, 10:21 AM
  3. Anyone done a 95 4l60e to 4l80e swap before?
    By trippyjoey in forum GM EFI Systems
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-13-2014, 06:22 AM
  4. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-11-2014, 05:41 AM
  5. 454 TBI AND 4L80E SWAP
    By 188ford in forum GM EFI Systems
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-28-2014, 06:56 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •