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Thread: Running a 454 with a 350 bin

  1. #1
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    Running a 454 with a 350 bin

    Hi All,

    I have a bin from JET (years ago) that ran my 350. BCC BHMZ with the 16196395 ECU

    I live in Colorado (high elevation).

    This bin actually runs the 454 pretty well (Idle sucks but WOT doesn't seem too bad).

    I obviously want to do some work on this to get it better but my concern right now is driving on this bin … and wrecking the motor somehow perhaps from running too lean etc.

    Here is my question- is it adequate to watch the O2 Voltage during WOT to verify that things are not getting too lean (to cause damage)?

    Thanks!!!

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    O2 will tell you if the engine is lean but it won't tell you if the spark timing is doing damage. I'm sure someone here could put a stock 454 calibration into that memcal for you.

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    Fuel Injected! jim_in_dorris's Avatar
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    I ran a 305 bin on a 350 for years trying to figure out why it was so lean (didn't know it was a 350, the PO said it was a 305) That's 50 ci and it was horribly lean, 100 ci. I wouldn't even consider it. Spark & fuel maps are off, Cyl. displacement is wrong, and injector sizing is wrong. That equals a damaged engine in short order. Put a stock 454 bin in, then start tuning (like 1project suggests).
    Last edited by jim_in_dorris; 08-03-2014 at 12:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinvinv View Post

    Here is my question- is it adequate to watch the O2 Voltage during WOT to verify that things are not getting too lean (to cause damage)?

    Thanks!!!
    No, the cross counts ruin any idea you had of using it as a gauge. A wide band O2 sensor would be a good choice!

    Running a 454 on a 350 bin is not a good idea... you need to fix it right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    No, the cross counts ruin any idea you had of using it as a gauge. A wide band O2 sensor would be a good choice!

    Running a 454 on a 350 bin is not a good idea... you need to fix it right!

    Hello, would you mind explaining what you mean by "the cross counts ruin the idea of using it as a gauge" ? Trying to learn a few things.

    The trouble with getting even a stock bin to start with is that I'd have to copy all the 454 tables into the 350 bin since I am using a 4L60E trans… and that seems a little overwhelming for a beginner like me. :(

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    Hello, would you mind explaining what you mean by "the cross counts ruin the idea of using it as a gauge" ? Trying to learn a few things.
    You can't just watch the NB and expect it to say "lean" or "rich." In closed loop the ecm will command the engine lean - rich - lean - rich, back and forth and if you connect a gauge to the O2 signal that's what you'll see. You can use NBO2 readings from the scantool or datalogger along with a few other values as a general indicator of lean operation but that's not the same as tying in a gauge.

    I *believe* Mark offered to help you get a starter calibration going. He does pro tuning and I'm sure his prices are reasonable. OTOH, with the amount of days that have passed since you first posted, an hour per day would probably have netted a finished cal by now. If you start the process and post your progress as you go, you might find people are willing to check out the work and advise as you progress.

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    :) Thanks for the advice. Indeed I am floundering. I know a lot about electronics and I rebuilt this engine but I really have no idea even where to start when it comes to tuning it. I did PM Mark about hiring him for some help but didn't receive any reply. Perhaps I will try again. OTOH I am willing to do the process myself but I am sorry to say I don't even know where to start really. I have the SW and the burner and can do traces (albeit with TTS Datamaster right now) but I am not sure what really my first step is. I've asked the questions I have in order to try and figure out the starting point but apparently I am too dense to determine where that point is from these responses. Sorry if I am frustrating. :) I appreciate your responses thus far man! Thanks.

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    Also- I think I see your point about the cross counts etc… I think you are saying this: In closed loop, the O2 sensor will always be bouncing back and forth around 0.5V. I get that- that is what closed loop does. BUT… my original question was meant to ask this (probably did a poor job of asking)… at WOT can I use the O2 sensor to give an Idea of rich/lean condition (again- only during WOT)?

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    I've asked the questions I have in order to try and figure out the starting point but apparently I am too dense to determine where that point is from these responses. Sorry if I am frustrating. :) I appreciate your responses thus far man! Thanks.
    Not a problem. Plenty of us here are very busy. May I suggest using just one thread?

    at WOT can I use the O2 sensor to give an Idea of rich/lean condition (again- only during WOT)?
    Yes, but...
    There's much more than WOT to be worried about. Excess spark advance can take out a set of rod bearings at low load. Sustained lean operation can cause piston surfaces to burn away without ever getting above 1/2 throttle. Most times it's easy to spot a problem but not always. Does your engine use a knock sensor? If not, consider it a necessity and install one. Then use your logging software to watch knock counts, BLM, INT, and O2 values to try and catch problems. But remember: All you're trying to do is keep the engine from blowing up before you get the correct cal. The best approach would be to park the vehicle until the right cal is obtained.

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    OK.

    thanks for the advice. I have a knock sensor and it is working. So is your recommendation (if I do this all on my own)- to start by opening two TunerPro sessions and copying all the fuel and spark tables from a $0E bin (454 with 4L80) into a $0D (350 with 4L60) … then start it up, idle it, and post a log? Is this the best way to start then?

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    And change cylinder volume and injector size as well.[ATTACH=CONFIG]7581[/ATTACH]d_350.jpg[ATTACH=CONFIG]7582[/ATTACH]e_454.jpg
    Last edited by jim_in_dorris; 08-03-2014 at 07:14 AM.
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    Yes. Open both calibrations in simultaneous instances of tunerpro and copy tables. Look at the constants as well and grab everything that doesn't seem to be a transmission variable. If you have questions about tables with dissimilar names or if you find a variable without a matching counterpart in the opposite cal, research it, post the question, etc. The definition files for this pcm are very good with notes so you've got a head start on a successful conversion.

    As you get deeper into this project you might want to explore the idea of enabling factory torque management. Your 7.4 exceeds the 60 rating of the trans.

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    Thanks. I've got a pretty high tech 4L60 at the moment but would still like to learn more about what is meant by factory torque management. Thanks for the pointers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    Yes. Open both calibrations in simultaneous instances of tunerpro and copy tables. Look at the constants as well and grab everything that doesn't seem to be a transmission variable. If you have questions about tables with dissimilar names or if you find a variable without a matching counterpart in the opposite cal, research it, post the question, etc. The definition files for this pcm are very good with notes so you've got a head start on a successful conversion.

    As you get deeper into this project you might want to explore the idea of enabling factory torque management. Your 7.4 exceeds the 60 rating of the trans.


    Another question, tuner pro has the compare bins feature and allows you to copy differences from one bin to the other of only items defined in the xdf. Is it a bad idea to use this capability to copy the 7.4L items from a 0e mask into the 350 chip? Maybe it won't work bc you can only specify one xdf?

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    Compare looks at it byte by byte. If two different masks use the same tables with the same values but they're at different places in the cal, compare would not indicate that the tables match.

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