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Thread: Runs worse as it learns....

  1. #1
    Carb and Points!
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    Runs worse as it learns....

    Hello,

    I've got a complicated system with a few problems I'm trying to work out. By complicated I mean I'm running a GM based TBI system from Affordable Fuel Injection (they have been almost zero help) on a 1984 Dodge W350 Crew cab with a 360 that has been stroked out to a 410 stroker motor. It can make a lot os HP and torque if it runs right. I have a 454 TB and for sensors I have an IAC, MAP, Temp, TPS. No knock sensor. For ignition I'm using a stock MOPAR distributor (magnetic) with the advance welded and a GM ICU. I've checked it thoroughly for vacuum leaks and I get no trouble codes.

    I'm finding my GM TBI system gets worse over a period of a few days... If I pull power to the ECM then reinstall the fuse it runs pretty good for a few days and the slowly gets worse and worse. I get what feels like a lean miss and eventually it backfires on acceleration. if I reset the ECM again it gets better for a few days and then slowly come back to the poor running.

    I also have problem with spark advance. If I set my base timing to zero degrees (unplugging the wire) I get lots of pinging right off the bat without even giving wide open throttle...really bad.So I've been running it with the base timing set to about 8 degrees retarded and although the pinging issue is nearly gone, I've also lost most of my power and the mileage sucks. I've tried swapping the ICU with no change. I also pulled the distributor and made sure everything was still welded together (the advance is welded) and nothing was sloppy or loose.

    I do not know what my injectors are and the folks at Affordable have no idea what they sold me either (jerks), BUT I took them to a place in Gladstone and had the guy flow test them. He said they are both even and have a nice pattern, BUT they are huge injectors...they tested at 180 at every pressure he put through them. I am running 26 psi fuel pressure (that's the way it was setup when it came).

    I hate simply swapping parts....so I'm trying to get some advice on what my problems might be. I believe I have a couple of them at least.

    Any thoughts??

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
    Hello,

    I've got a complicated system with a few problems I'm trying to work out. By complicated I mean I'm running a GM based TBI system from Affordable Fuel Injection (they have been almost zero help) on a 1984 Dodge W350 Crew cab with a 360 that has been stroked out to a 410 stroker motor. It can make a lot os HP and torque if it runs right. I have a 454 TB and for sensors I have an IAC, MAP, Temp, TPS. No knock sensor. For ignition I'm using a stock MOPAR distributor (magnetic) with the advance welded and a GM ICU. I've checked it thoroughly for vacuum leaks and I get no trouble codes.

    I'm finding my GM TBI system gets worse over a period of a few days... If I pull power to the ECM then reinstall the fuse it runs pretty good for a few days and the slowly gets worse and worse. I get what feels like a lean miss and eventually it backfires on acceleration. if I reset the ECM again it gets better for a few days and then slowly come back to the poor running.

    I also have problem with spark advance. If I set my base timing to zero degrees (unplugging the wire) I get lots of pinging right off the bat without even giving wide open throttle...really bad.So I've been running it with the base timing set to about 8 degrees retarded and although the pinging issue is nearly gone, I've also lost most of my power and the mileage sucks. I've tried swapping the ICU with no change. I also pulled the distributor and made sure everything was still welded together (the advance is welded) and nothing was sloppy or loose.

    I do not know what my injectors are and the folks at Affordable have no idea what they sold me either (jerks), BUT I took them to a place in Gladstone and had the guy flow test them. He said they are both even and have a nice pattern, BUT they are huge injectors...they tested at 180 at every pressure he put through them. I am running 26 psi fuel pressure (that's the way it was setup when it came).

    I hate simply swapping parts....so I'm trying to get some advice on what my problems might be. I believe I have a couple of them at least.

    Any thoughts??
    I think it would help us if you could explain what changes have been done to the engine.
    As Forged pistons 9 to 1 compression, camshaft of what brand as stock or. Rocker arms a OE ratio? What intake manifold are you using and how is the TBI base adapted or bolted the the intake.
    ICU. Is the ignition module what brand, and how is it mounted? What is the distance from the ICU to the Ignition coil? The 2 pickup coil wires are located outside the dist, and how long are the wires? Any shielding to these wires? Is the place you mounted this have a heat sink with grease and a ground wire. What O2 brand and location. O2 wires like a single wire or 4 wire heated. O2 Heater work? Headers or iron exhaust. Where did the wiring harness come from?
    ECM Grounds are soldered and bolted to the bat neg or block where the bat ground wire is bolted. Do you have a way to collect data from the ALDL and save the file to upload it?
    Have you shut the engine Off, wiped the bottom of the injector pods off and waited to see if they leak fuel?
    You stated No knock sensor. Do you have the Knock Module? Did they turn this off in the calibration for you so the code will not set? I understand you had asked them for help.
    Is the ECM a reman? From who as a reman or used?
    Thanks.

  3. #3
    Fuel Injected!
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    I didn't see the ECM service part number in the list of info billygraves asked for so provide that too.

  4. #4
    Carb and Points!
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    The engine was built at the same time the TBI system was added.
    Forged pistons, 10:1 compression (I always run premium), Cam is a custom grind with Exh lift 444, Centerline 114, Duration 214, Intake Lift 443, Centerline 106, Duration 214, Cam timing is 105 degree intake, Rockers are OEM, Stock Cast iron intake with an adapter plate to attach the TBI unit.
    ICM is a stock GM (currently an Autozone part), mounted to a heat sink with heat transfer paste (aluminum plate) mounted to the inner fender well away from heat and grounded well. Distance from ICM to coil by wire is probably three feet at max. The pickup wires from the distributor to the ICM have no shielding.
    Os sensor is a 3-wire, heated unit, I have no idea what the brand is but told (by AFI) that if it needs to be replaced that a unit off of a 1995 Chevy K2500 w/ 350 will fit. The O2 sensor is mounted in a bung on the passenger side header collector.
    Wiring harness custom built for the app by Affordable Fuel injection which supplied the whole kit and was supposed to custom burn the chip for the application.
    I'm not sure about the ECM ground questions...I'm an electrician, I try to make sure everything is grounded to clean bare metal. The block and the body and frame are all bonded together well.
    I have both ALDL and TunerPro software. I can record data easily with the ALDL software, but I haven't figured out the TunerPro software quite yet.
    The injectors don't appear to leak.
    The system did not come with a knock sensor, AFI knows it does not have a knock sensor and I assume they programmed the chip accordingly.
    No idea if the EECM is a reman. I only know that it did not look new and I've swapped the EPROM several times with new burns from AFI.

    I think that answers most of your questions...let me know if I missed anything.

  5. #5
    Carb and Points!
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    Also, the truck has a manual transmission.

  6. #6
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    The ECM is a 1227747...is that what you mean?

  7. #7
    Fuel Injected! steveo's Avatar
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    a few days is a long time; but if you unplug the o2 sensor, does it continue to run poorly for a few days?

    who tuned this thing?

    why are you still running a botched timing map?

    sounds like maybe just a bad tune...

  8. #8
    Carb and Points!
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveo View Post
    a few days is a long time; but if you unplug the o2 sensor, does it continue to run poorly for a few days?

    who tuned this thing?

    why are you still running a botched timing map?

    sounds like maybe just a bad tune...
    I have not tried unplugging the O2 sensor...although it is running closed loop.

    The Affordable Fuel Injection guys tuned it several times....but they couldn't seem to get it right and stopped providing me any service. I gave them every bit of the info they asked for before even ordering the kit and provided multiple data collection files exactly as they requested, but apparently they were too busy to provide a finshed product. I would not ever recommend them to anyone ever.

    I strongly suspect my timing match is botched, but I don't know how to fix it.

    I consulted a guy here locally that could burn the chip...but he didn't seem to have a lot of confidence in the timing part of the equation.

    I don't drive the truck a ton...so a few days might only be 50-100 miles...maybe even less depending on what I'm doing.

  9. #9
    Carb and Points!
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    I'm going to take the truck over to a local place in Vancouver (WA) called Wong's Performance Tuning. I'm told they are very well versed in GM tuning. I hope I can afford what they have to offer.
    I like to do things myself, but I only have so much time to figure it all out.

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected! steveo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
    I strongly suspect my timing match is botched, but I don't know how to fix it.
    well you did kinda patch it up by dropping 8 degrees at the distributor. perhaps in that case dropping 8 degrees across the map, putting it back to normal at the distributor, then slowly bringing it back up would be a good starting point...

    but without a knock sensor, kinda hard to do any decent knock logging; so perhaps you should consider installing one?

  11. #11
    Fuel Injected! steveo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
    I have not tried unplugging the O2 sensor...although it is running closed loop.
    well 'bout the only thing that'll change over the course of a few days that resetting the ecm would fix is closed loop blms.... so that's why i asked..

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveo View Post
    well you did kinda patch it up by dropping 8 degrees at the distributor. perhaps in that case dropping 8 degrees across the map, putting it back to normal at the distributor, then slowly bringing it back up would be a good starting point...

    but without a knock sensor, kinda hard to do any decent knock logging; so perhaps you should consider installing one?
    I have considered that, but wouldn't I need to reburn the chip. I don't know how to do that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveo View Post
    well 'bout the only thing that'll change over the course of a few days that resetting the ecm would fix is closed loop blms.... so that's why i asked..
    So by that you mean that most likely my chip is burnt incorrectly for what I have?

  14. #14
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    I'm confident I can buy a burner and figure out how to burn the EPROMS, but I have no idea what to change or how much. Way too many options.
    I need to find someone local that can school me I guess.

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected! jim_in_dorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
    I'm going to take the truck over to a local place in Vancouver (WA) called Wong's Performance Tuning. I'm told they are very well versed in GM tuning. I hope I can afford what they have to offer.
    I like to do things myself, but I only have so much time to figure it all out.
    PM Dave W on this forum, he hangs out in that area Vancouver WA. and is super helpful in getting tunes straightened out. I am sure you will be pleased with his efforts. He can be found at http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Old-School-EFi
    Last edited by jim_in_dorris; 06-17-2014 at 12:45 AM.
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