The highest octane pump fuel sold in the USA is either Propane or CNG. I was at the fuel station I get E85 from, filling my Titan at $2.85 a gallon for 104 octane E85. While filling the tank I looked over and the CNG pump was $2.25 GGE. Sometimes I wish I were running natural gas.Originally Posted by Hog
I have been known to install CNG kits and work on them from time to time. I am even a certified inspector. I love my CNG.
Local filling station is $1.58 GGE and it is 130 octane. The CNG does displace some of the volume of air entering the cylinders, but it is also about 17 to 1 AFR.
Take a look at the 2015 Impala CNG. the company the is building this car does it right, nit some patched together junk like the 2013 C2500 were.
Anyway back to the subject. The major automotive establishments want HIGH OCTANE. I think they have plans for high compression to make the engines more efficient.
Way back when I was doing my training at the tech college I think the optimum ratio was taught to us was around 15 to 1 compression ratio. Of course in a lab or on a dyno. I think the best RPM was around 2000. Now this is all very old information and information evolves, so I would guess that it is all out dated.
I sure would like to see 13+ to 1 compression ratio with good fuel and direct injection. I think it would help elevate the particulate issue with the direct injection engines. It looks like they are going to have to add particulate filters to gas engines
Hopefully adding particulate filters to a gasoline engine would not murder the efficiency of it.
mazda has 13:1 direct injection with gasoline now..... and getting some pretty impressive MPG numbers in the mazda6, which isn't a small car. i want to say with 87 octane as well.
1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E
The complete design is well worth looking at. I love how they dropped the NOX in that engine.
i love mazda for the weird concept designs that they just chuck into production vehicles, most other car companies try new stuff and never get out of the concept car stage... wankels.. miller cycle.. crazy direct injection setups..
Yep... gettin old. BSFC is lowest at peak torque.Not sure where you have seen that BSFC was highest at peak torque??? BSFC is often LOWEST at peak torque and falls off on both ends.
Articles? Readin? Hasn't been time for that fun stuff in a long while.
I would think that E85 with 13:1 statc c/r would do well. Although supposedly when using true R+M/2 ratings, E85 comes down to 94-96 octane. Some of GM'sGM's stock calibrations were upping power by 15 sae Cert hp and 20-30 lb/ft on E85 over gas.
Is that 100 octane Sunoco you can get at the pumps out West rated at R+M/2?
Somewhat off of the topic, but we have 4 ELR's in. If anyone is looking at getting an ELR we have 4 of them. I missed out on a required hands on class for the batteries, so I am not certified to work on them. We have one guy that does all of the work including the PDI's and we have the shop foreman that is also certified. We have 2 in the shop currently, 1 is plugged in and the other is in the tech's bay. I walked by on the 1 getting the charge. It is only $82k
This is about last years SAE congress keynote speaker Bob Putz
Enjoyed Bob Lutz Keynote at the 2013 SAE World Congress. Here are my notes on some key points he touched and thought I’d share them with you.
He was asked to speak on what he would do if he were the king of the automotive industry for a week. He quickly changed that to “Emperor of the US” as just Auto industry wouldn’t be sufficient, and a King would have to deal with Congress.
On CAFE standards:
The CAFE and CO2 regulation is a backward way of going about the problem. “Reducing fuel consumption by forcing automakers to sell smaller vehicles is like fighting obesity by forcing clothing manufacturer to sell only small sizes.” He advocated a gradual national gas tax (~25 cents a year), the money from which could be used to fix roads and bridges. In a decade,this tax will take gasoline prices up to $8/gallon which is in line with the rest of the world. This will drive the consumer behavior towards more fuel efficient cars, and let the market forces work. This shouldn’t be a political impossibility in the US, because Europe has made it work with conservative and liberal parties. Out of $8 / gallon in Europe, half of it is gas tax.
On Diesels
He said diesels did not make economic sense in America because of Diesel’s comparative price with gasoline. US diesel regulation is a lot stricter. He guesses that there is a $2000 premium in base engine costs and about $1500-$2000 premium on achieving emissions. All this for a 20% better fuel economy with a fuel that costs about 20% more than gasoline. “Diesel has a certain cachet in the United States as the intelligent way to save fuel, but it’s mostly psychological.”
On Public Transport
He said the auto industry supported public transport. High speed trains competes with Airline industry not the auto industry. Using Switzerland as an example, he said it has been shown that mass transit does not affect car ownership, though it may reduce the miles you put on the car. And public transport will improve the quality of driving as fewer people would be sitting in traffic.
On Fuel cells
Lutz remained very skeptical on fuel cell technology for automobiles and if there would ever be a suitable infrastructure forautomotive passenger fuel cell vehicles to be broadly adopted. He believed the future would be electric cars, perhaps Lithium Air batteries with 10 times the energy density. Li Air cannot be recharged today but that might change in a decade. A decade ago, Li-Ions were not suitable for cars.
On meeting CAFE standards
In Lutz’s opinion, meeting CAFE standards will cost us $5000 more per vehicle. US EPA debates these numbers but he believes it to be a good estimate. Numerous technologies will have to be adopted to meet the standards including materials (e.g., carbon fiber), advanced transmission and hybridization of the vehicle (might only need a small 7-10 mile range like the plug-in Prius). He foresees all types of vehicles adopting “partial electrification” to get a better MPG on the sticker including full size pick-up, SUVs and Corvettes.
In the long run, when a battery can provide a 300 mile range every morning when you unplug, people would wonder whether they really need a gasoline engine ever, and that would be the tipping point.
http://www.cseg.us/tech-blog/page/2/
I was able to get a 9.8:1 engine to run very well on E85. The factory ran the intake cams relatively retarded at low-mid loads and only stepped up the advance under heavier loads and higher RPMs, then retarded the cams very quickly after peak torque. I remapped the intake cam advance to fully advance under less load, stay more advanced for a bit longer and pulled down 398 RWTQ @ 2,980 from a NA 5.6 on E85. I was able to run a substantial amount more timing advance off-idle and through the midrange as well. Also did not have to retard the timing (up to 35-37*BTDC) up top after leaning out the very rich factory calibration like I did on 91. Ordinarily my change from 10.8:1 air/fuel ratio to 12.6:1 required retarding the timing down to 32-34* BTDC.
Cams are 232/244 @ .006, 199/210@ .050, .375/.385" lift, exhaust lobe center of 112* and an ICL ranging from 94* to 124*. LSA can be as tight as 103* or as wide as 118*.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-17-2014 at 12:15 AM.
I feel the answer for many people will be CNG conversion and in-garage refueling stations.This is about last years SAE congress keynote speaker Bob Putz
Enjoyed Bob Lutz Keynote at the 2013 SAE World Congress. Here are my notes on some key points he touched and thought I’d share them with you.
He was asked to speak on what he would do if he were the king of the automotive industry for a week. He quickly changed that to “Emperor of the US” as just Auto industry wouldn’t be sufficient, and a King would have to deal with Congress.
On CAFE standards:
The CAFE and CO2 regulation is a backward way of going about the problem. “Reducing fuel consumption by forcing automakers to sell smaller vehicles is like fighting obesity by forcing clothing manufacturer to sell only small sizes.” He advocated a gradual national gas tax (~25 cents a year), the money from which could be used to fix roads and bridges. In a decade,this tax will take gasoline prices up to $8/gallon which is in line with the rest of the world. This will drive the consumer behavior towards more fuel efficient cars, and let the market forces work. This shouldn’t be a political impossibility in the US, because Europe has made it work with conservative and liberal parties. Out of $8 / gallon in Europe, half of it is gas tax.
On Diesels
He said diesels did not make economic sense in America because of Diesel’s comparative price with gasoline. US diesel regulation is a lot stricter. He guesses that there is a $2000 premium in base engine costs and about $1500-$2000 premium on achieving emissions. All this for a 20% better fuel economy with a fuel that costs about 20% more than gasoline. “Diesel has a certain cachet in the United States as the intelligent way to save fuel, but it’s mostly psychological.”
On Public Transport
He said the auto industry supported public transport. High speed trains competes with Airline industry not the auto industry. Using Switzerland as an example, he said it has been shown that mass transit does not affect car ownership, though it may reduce the miles you put on the car. And public transport will improve the quality of driving as fewer people would be sitting in traffic.
On Fuel cells
Lutz remained very skeptical on fuel cell technology for automobiles and if there would ever be a suitable infrastructure forautomotive passenger fuel cell vehicles to be broadly adopted. He believed the future would be electric cars, perhaps Lithium Air batteries with 10 times the energy density. Li Air cannot be recharged today but that might change in a decade. A decade ago, Li-Ions were not suitable for cars.
On meeting CAFE standards
In Lutz’s opinion, meeting CAFE standards will cost us $5000 more per vehicle. US EPA debates these numbers but he believes it to be a good estimate. Numerous technologies will have to be adopted to meet the standards including materials (e.g., carbon fiber), advanced transmission and hybridization of the vehicle (might only need a small 7-10 mile range like the plug-in Prius). He foresees all types of vehicles adopting “partial electrification” to get a better MPG on the sticker including full size pick-up, SUVs and Corvettes.
In the long run, when a battery can provide a 300 mile range every morning when you unplug, people would wonder whether they really need a gasoline engine ever, and that would be the tipping point.
http://www.cseg.us/tech-blog/page/2/
For years when I lived in Milwaukee I watched AutoLine Detroit every Sunday. I have seen Bob speak several times on the show. He has an opinion and it has cost him a job or 2.
About 7 or 8 years ago the host John McElroy stated on a few shows that gas prices needed to jump up to the $4 or $5 per gallon price. This would get us in line to explore alternative fuels. If gas is cheap we will stick with it and the initial cost involved with the evolution of alternative fuels would never be recouped.
Then the gas prices jumped to $3.50 or even $5 per gallon and people started to lose their homes. If gas was under $2 per gallon Tesla would not be the presence that they are. Battery technology would be far behind what it is today. Higher gas prices have helped bring down the cost of alternative fuels.
$8 per gallon is too high. I would be making my own Ethanol at home if fuel was $8 per gallon.
A few years back Eaton corp announced a $500 CNG filling appliance for home use that would hit the market in 2015. I have seen a few more low cost compressors coming to market at the $1500 range. The Eaton compressor uses a fluid to compress the CNG and some type of heat transfer unit. The issue with hone filling stations is the compressors get hot and fail. Then they blow crap into the CNG system.
I have customers filling at home for $.60 per gallon after road tax and government incentives.
We have a device that when installed on a vehicle that has been converted to CNG with a low budget and some high dollar kit will add on average 4 mpg over not installing the module. If you ever decide to do CNG on a GM vehicle I would like to give you a module to try.
I have actually been looking into converting the 5.7 Express and deleting the gasoline fuel system entirely. The only reason I have not converted is I am stuck between Natural Gas and LPG and single fuel vs dual fuel. Just too many options. With the marine intake on my Express I could pickup a set of gaseous injectors and run an aftermarket fuel rail setup and tune the 0411 to have a sequentially injected gaseous setup. The other problem I have is I am making somewhere in the 450 HP range at 6,000 rpm from the old 350 with the intake, heads, cam, headers, etc. I have not been able to find a set of gaseous injectors large enough to fuel the engine alone and I am afraid to piggy back something. However I have seen some conversions for higher HP engines that actually retain the gasoline system and start bringing in the gasoline injectors when the gaseous fuel injectors start to max out. However with this system it crossed my mind that the "gasoline" injectors could actually be a secondary set of gaseous injectors. I did enough research about the subject to find out I need hours more research to develop a system to work for my intended purpose.
I am with you on the Ethanol. At $8.00 a gallon for gasoline distilling your own ethanol would make sense.
I do know that if I go dedicated gaseous fuel, the engine is coming out, getting flattop pistons and the head is getting angle milled substantially. I will be increasing the static compression ratio to the 11.5-12:1 range. I have also considered a 383 to keep the power output up.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-17-2014 at 03:39 PM.
I have a lot of information on CNG. If you would like to peruse that we can start another thread. I have all of the Dedicated Injector part numbers that we use. The issue would not be the injectors, but the regulator maxing out on flow.
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