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Thread: Ford MAS EFI on chevy

  1. #1
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    Ford MAS EFI on chevy

    I would like to know if you can use the FORD MAS EFI system on a Chevy. I currently have a speed density PowerJection 3 system that dosent like the the 6-8in of vac. I have a Chevy 421 ( sbc bored out ) w/ 520/540 236/242@.050 cam. It dyno'ed 625hm 600tq w/ a shop holley 750cfm carb.
    I have never been able to get anywhere near 600hp with the PowerJection 3 .. more like 500hp at best and leaned out soo bad I clipped the rev limit to 5000rpm!

    I want to use the cheap parts that ford has and maybe a up-graded MAS meter.

    I have looked at MAS AIR FLO efi from ProMracing and its $4,000.00+ price tag scared me off.

    I want to do this on cheap side..2000.00 or less..

    Again I do not want a Speed Denisity unit,, I need the MAS air flow to work with my cam/engine combo

    THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!

    Jeff

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    should be no real problem to run SD if you use the right codebase and the right size injectors and fuel pump to stop it going lean.
    the realtime tunable code for 1227165 delco ecu that i use would be capable and has a closed throttle VE table especially for use with big cams with overlap to help low vacuam idle conditions.theres a lot of people running pretty staunch combos on it allready http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=356

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Most people go to SD because of the the big cam like you have MAF sensor does not like the reversion at idle.

    A cam like that needs to idle at 1200+ RPM and sometimes 30* spark advance at idle and you may get some more vacuum.

    The PowerJection 3 system you have will only support 500 HP, so that may be why your running lean? Needs More Fuel!

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    Quote Originally Posted by delcowizzid View Post
    should be no real problem to run SD if you use the right codebase and the right size injectors and fuel pump to stop it going lean.
    the realtime tunable code for 1227165 delco ecu that i use would be capable and has a closed throttle VE table especially for use with big cams with overlap to help low vacuam idle conditions.theres a lot of people running pretty staunch combos on it allready http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=356
    I want to get away form programing anything, flash the ecu ( a9L) one time and your done. all you have do is hook it up.

    SD will not adjust for BOTH WOT and IDLE. you have to give up one or the other, I have 4 80lb injectors and a walboro 355, plenty of pump and fuel. at WOT the Powerjection 3 will not drive the injectors to max PW.

    Its SD inability to respond to vac below 8in the causes my issue. This cam idles @ 850rpm w/ a holley carb great. Revision at idle will not be a issue until you get over 650 lift. MAS units are on the market that will handle my cam without issue. MasFloEFI sells a unit for 1000hp+ and you know that has to have a bigger cam than mine.

    So, has anybody used a ford a9L on a chevy? and what will I have to do to get the gm dizzy to work with the ford ecu?
    Last edited by o07wray; 03-30-2014 at 07:02 PM.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Well in GM MAF it is very forgiving when it comes to tuning and still runs well, data is not right, but it runs well, tuning idle is all the work but still done all the time. SD does have parameters to adjust WOT and idle.

    If you don't want to program anything? Why EFI? Carb is the only choice and you still need to change jets and power valves to get it right.

    Can't help on the rest? Good luck!

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Well in GM MAF it is very forgiving when it comes to tuning and still runs well, data is not right, but it runs well, tuning idle is all the work but still done all the time. SD does have parameters to adjust WOT and idle.

    If you don't want to program anything? Why EFI? Carb is the only choice and you still need to change jets and power valves to get it right.

    Can't help on the rest? Good luck!
    Well, call me a newbie... ( because I am ) LOL.... I did not know gm has a MAF system.. PLEASE tell me more,,, parts needed, will ECU be re flashed? If so, what would I need to flash it? or is their a reliable company that will flash it for me? ECT

    THANKS!!!!!!
    Jeff

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by o07wray View Post
    SD will not adjust for BOTH WOT and IDLE. you have to give up one or the other, I have 4 80lb injectors and a walboro 355, plenty of pump and fuel. at WOT the Powerjection 3 will not drive the injectors to max PW.
    I just have to horsesh%t on this statement, yes, it's harsh, but that's because this statement is so blatently wrong as a blanket statement, that's almost offensive on it's own. I use SD (almost) exclusively on my conversions and have NEVER had to give up anything between idle and WOT, because the locations on the maps are so drastically different, even with low vacuum producing cams, that I have never had an issue tuning for a decent idle and WOT performance, at least not because it's an SD system, other factors, yes, such as cam overlap, or limitations imposed by the injectors used, etc, but the type of EFI has not been a factor there. Stop listening to old timers that don't understand the "magic box under the dash".

    Its SD inability to respond to vac below 8in the causes my issue. This cam idles @ 850rpm w/ a holley carb great. Revision at idle will not be a issue until you get over 650 lift. MAS units are on the market that will handle my cam without issue. MasFloEFI sells a unit for 1000hp+ and you know that has to have a bigger cam than mine.
    SD can certainly respond to vacuum of less than 8", that's approximately 75 kpa (off the top of my head) and depending on the code used, can have few points of adjustment, that can make tuning difficult, though not impossible, or many points of adjustment, that can make it a bit easier to fine tune. The problem is that people don't realize there are some parameters that need to be changed when using a cam that has low vacuum, many have to do with errors that will set the CEL, there's a couple others that I don't recall off the top of my head, but they set the initial idle manifold pressure settings and references.

    So, has anybody used a ford a9L on a chevy? and what will I have to do to get the gm dizzy to work with the ford ecu?
    Most people go the other way, GM electronics on Ford engines.

    FWIW, I've swapped a few Mustangs over to A9L and without additional tuning they didn't run well, when they produced such little vacuum, it's not a magic code.

    Most people that have the GM MAF systems, swap to the GM SD systems, for various reasons, one being to get rid of the MAF (restriction, and expensive), easier to tune (most applications) and easier to find the ECMs.

    I'm actually going to suggest you don't look at OEM EFI for your application, but look at MegaSquirt, it has what's called "Alpha-N mode" that calculates load based on throttle position, or there's a blended mode that also uses a MAP or MAF sensor for additional load sensing. You'll likely find that it works better for you than learning about what any OEM EFI system will need to run on an engine that produces so little vacuum. I don't recall if MS1 has Alpha-N, but MS2 and 3 definitely due, and of the price difference between 1 and 2, it should really be a no brainer to grab the MS2 version. MS3 is a fair bit more expensive, but IMO has many more useful features such as the ability to do true SFI and sequential ignition, along with a mutitude of other features.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

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    Sixshotter,

    Until you drive MY truck.,.. SHUT UP

    I'll back my statements by FACT.
    Ask F.A.S.T. about using the new SD 2.0 system w/ less than 6in vac. I think they would know whats best. they will not sell you one unless you have more then 8in vac!!!!
    SD depends on MAP to adjust its fuel table ,, so, unless you can run 3 different tables ( one for idle, one for cruze, one for WOT) If you have a large HP engine ( over 500hp ) SD is a DUD.

    Now on the other hand if you have less then 400hp SD is great. and covers the full range of that size motor well, under all driving conditions. Or your writing maps sooo complicated you'll need a degree to understand them.

    YOUR BLAMING THE MOTOR FOR THE FUEL PROBLEM..
    SD is not a cure-all fuel system.. it has its limitations AND REQUIRES TUNING EVERY TIME YOU MAKE A MINOR ENGINE CHANGE! .

    MAS flow systems do not require programing other than the base programs to match the base motor specs.

    AND ALPHA "N" MODE is for all out DRAG RACING... this is a daily driver And MEGA SQUIRT is over priced ( MS3 is $500+ and has to be assembled add 200 for assembled & tested) AND HAS TO BE PROGRAMED AND MAPS WRITTEN. this is why I want to go to MAS FLow..NO USER PROGRAMING IS NEEDED.

    I just came from Farmington NM .. 7000ft+ and my SD Powerjection 3 hand to have a new map and would fail to supply the fuel needed BEACUSE OF THE SD GETS ITS SIGNAL TO ADJUST THE MAPS FROM THE M.A.P!!!

    But what the heck!!! I don;t know what I'm talking about,,,,

    I have done my home work.. and GMs Mass Flow EFI is lacking compared to the A9L ford unit, perty much a stand alone unit that can have its base program changed. My pal has a 5.0L mustang that hes modded to 875hp at rear wheels, he changed, comp ratio, stroke, bore, cam and the intake, and injector size, had the A9L flashed for the changes.. and OFF TO THE RACES.. No tuning, to tweeking, no programming.. he even changed the headers and cam after that and STILL DID NOT HAVE TO MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THE A9L!!!!

    this is why I asked about running a ford mass flow on a GM

    Eagle ,, thanks for your help..

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Well, since you have all of the answers already what are you waiting for?

    You need to do more research on SD systems instead of listening to the propaganda of junk like F.A.S.T. I can tell you're actually listening to the propaganda, because you believe that the type of EFI system has some sort of an arbitrary HP limit to it, do yourself a favor and forget the propaganda, it will only limit your results, and have you buy overpriced equipment that is no better than less expensive options.

    I have not known one person who has used a fast system, other than on an all out drag car where there are basically two throttle positions, being happy with their F.A.S.T. system.

    Alpha-N is not only for racing, it's a viable metering algorithm, that works well on engines that make very little vacuum at idle, which is part of the reason that some GM MAF systems use it as a back up fuel algorithm when the MAF sensor fails or goes out of range.

    MASS flow systems or MAF based systems do not magically self adjust like you would like to believe, they still require tuning, they still require tweaking when a mechanical change is made, more than the basics like you want to believe.

    Just a few hours ago you didn't even know GM had a MAF based system, and now you've researched it and become an expert on it? People that have been tuning the GM MAF system for years don't even consider themselves to know all about them...

    How is your friend's rolling idle? I bet he thinks it sounds "mean". :rolleyes:

    You want a plug and play system that will self tune, good luck with that, even the ones sold that way never truly are. I also think you've come to the wrong place if that's what you want. None of us here will recommend a system like that, and realize that the only way to get a good tune out of a set-up is to manually tune it.

    But, again, you seem to have all the answers, so good luck.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  10. #10
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by o07wray View Post
    Sixshotter,

    Until you drive MY truck.,.. SHUT UP
    Well your new here and don't understand we don't yell and we are not rude, so here's a chance to apoligise to Six Shooter or you can SHUT UP and get the **** OUT!

    Quote Originally Posted by o07wray View Post
    I'll back my statements by FACT.
    Ask F.A.S.T. about using the new SD 2.0 system w/ less than 6in vac. I think they would know whats best. they will not sell you one unless you have more then 8in vac!!!!
    SD depends on MAP to adjust its fuel table ,, so, unless you can run 3 different tables ( one for idle, one for cruze, one for WOT) If you have a large HP engine ( over 500hp ) SD is a DUD.

    Now on the other hand if you have less then 400hp SD is great. and covers the full range of that size motor well, under all driving conditions. Or your writing maps sooo complicated you'll need a degree to understand them..
    GM systems only need one table for idle and cruise and then there's an adder to that table for WOT. But others do have seperate Idle and Off Idle tables as well as extended tables. So all you found was the aftermarket system is no where near as good and is severly limited. But then you don't want to tune so their advertising has you hook line and sinker.
    The only facts you have here are the limitations of this aftermarket system. They (Fast) do know best what all the limitations are. I've never had to deal with these limitations with a factory GM system. Of course I'd never build a daily driver motor that can't do better then 6-8 inches of vacuum either?

    Quote Originally Posted by o07wray View Post
    MAS flow systems do not require programing other than the base programs to match the base motor specs.

    AND ALPHA "N" MODE is for all out DRAG RACING... this is a daily driver And MEGA SQUIRT is over priced ( MS3 is $500+ and has to be assembled add 200 for assembled & tested) AND HAS TO BE PROGRAMED AND MAPS WRITTEN. this is why I want to go to MAS FLow..NO USER PROGRAMING IS NEEDED.

    I just came from Farmington NM .. 7000ft+ and my SD Powerjection 3 hand to have a new map and would fail to supply the fuel needed BEACUSE OF THE SD GETS ITS SIGNAL TO ADJUST THE MAPS FROM THE M.A.P!!!

    But what the heck!!! I don;t know what I'm talking about,,,,

    I have done my home work.. and GMs Mass Flow EFI is lacking compared to the A9L ford unit, perty much a stand alone unit that can have its base program changed. My pal has a 5.0L mustang that hes modded to 875hp at rear wheels, he changed, comp ratio, stroke, bore, cam and the intake, and injector size, had the A9L flashed for the changes.. and OFF TO THE RACES.. No tuning, to tweeking, no programming.. he even changed the headers and cam after that and STILL DID NOT HAVE TO MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THE A9L!!!!
    .
    I don't know where you come up with this stuff from? Stop yelling, take a chill pill and try to learn something becaue right now your wrong on every level. Except you know pretty much all the limitations of your FAST system.

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  11. #11
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    one of our forum members installed and tuned this setup on 408 stroker mopar with big solid roller cam its just a $50 GM ecu running SD

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    WOW,,, apologize for WHAT?? Six all but called me liar,

    And as I can see YOU ALL DONT KNOW CRAP ABOUT EFI.. your just a bunch of tunner monkeys ( sorry but thats not directed at ALL of you )

    Alpha N is NOT A DAILY DRIVER OPTION!!!

    At this point all have gotten is questioned about why I don't want a SD system.

    NO ONE listened to what I said... I DO NOT WANT TO TUNE!!!!

    Eagle.. thank you for your input, But playing stupid to see who really knows what they are talking about has payed off once again. I said I was a newbee to flush out the wackos and get real help from the people that do know EFI ( and other things), has worked for me in the past and worked for me again.

    I knew GM had MAS on the TPI, I just wanted to see who really knows how to set it up ( I need to use it on a hurricane intake w/aftermarket throttle body)and got what I needed to know,, this is a SD forum.

    Thanks again Eagle.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by o07wray View Post
    WOW,,, apologize for WHAT?? Six all but called me liar,

    And as I can see YOU ALL DONT KNOW CRAP ABOUT EFI.. your just a bunch of tunner monkeys ( sorry but thats not directed at ALL of you )

    Alpha N is NOT A DAILY DRIVER OPTION!!!

    At this point all have gotten is questioned about why I don't want a SD system.

    NO ONE listened to what I said... I DO NOT WANT TO TUNE!!!!

    Eagle.. thank you for your input, But playing stupid to see who really knows what they are talking about has payed off once again. I said I was a newbee to flush out the wackos and get real help from the people that do know EFI ( and other things), has worked for me in the past and worked for me again.

    I knew GM had MAS on the TPI, I just wanted to see who really knows how to set it up ( I need to use it on a hurricane intake w/aftermarket throttle body)and got what I needed to know,, this is a SD forum.

    Thanks again Eagle.
    Don't want to tune...Slap a carb and HEI on it and get to changing power valves and jets.

    Other than that ALHPA N works GREAT for a street driven vehicle. The EBL code can use Alpha N blended with the MAP signal. Worked fantastically with my 232/240 cammed 350 that made so little vacuum it required hydroboost. It was in a heavy vehicle that cruised 2,600 rpm @ 70 in OD with the a/c blasting yet would often knock down 17+ MPG. Idle and Off-idle transition works off Alpha N with some MAP blended in to sense load changes. Once you are up above idle speed and the vacuum signal is stable, you can taper off the Alpha N to your speed density tables. Works phenominally well.

    GM Mafs work GREAT in the OBDII application.....I used a MAF TBI code in a 7427 that worked well, although truth be told MAP worked nearly as well once dialed in.

    That being said I tune a MAF based operating system in my Nissan Titan and it definately has limitations. I minor change in the location of the sensor or the diameter of the pipe it is in completely throws the stock tune out of the window. Swapping to long tube headers and higher flowing exhaust will often make the system run so lean it would fry pistons if you ran WOT for any prolonged period. This system has the advantage of having wideband o2 sensors and the ability to run closed loop at the commanded air/fuel ratio at WOT.

    There are some very talented tuners and many knowledgeable EFI people on this board. What you are asking for is nearly impossible for a factory ECU based EFI, even some Ford/Chevy/Aftermarket conglomeration of parts. But whateve it is your time and money. My engines run just fine.

    Some of us have re-written GM assembly code to do things that we want it to do. It has been close to 10 years ago now, but I had wideband closed loop on a 7427 ECM using the linear EGR input pin, cooling fan control, traction control based on both the governor of a big block TBI truck and spark retard.
    Last edited by Fast355; 03-31-2014 at 06:47 PM.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Don't you just love it when people tell you they know nothing about a subject, but then argue with the people that do?

    This is one type of personality I'll never understand.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  15. #15
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Well he's on a week vacation in case he can change his attitude towards others. I gave him a chance to apoligise to you and change his tone while explaining we don't act like that around here. Right now he only knows what FAST EFI and other aftermarket EFI systems has told him. He's going to be pissed when he finds out he spent all that money on a EFI system that is more hype in marketing to cover limitations...

    If we were going to bet on it? My money would be on he'll never change...

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