LT1/0411 PCM/Opti Delete

[sandrock]

I've threadjacked a few threads asking questions that happened to be relevent to the post, but I thought I would post a brand new thread to try to mush all the info together and *hopefully* come up with system that doesn't involve spending bukoos of cash through EFI Connections (Not knocking them at all, but the cost of what you get seems like it's mostly paying for R&D).

First, I'll lay out the parts n' stuff....let's take an LT1 w/96-97 timing cover (for crank sensor), the 0411 computer, an LS1 cam sensor (or equivalent...the type that goes in a timing cover), and a fully disassembled Optispark, minus the Opti since it won't be needed at all.

Now, let's lay out some parts that have yet to be made...a blank Opti distributor cap, a new cam sensor reluctor (based on the original optidisk, instead of all the holes the original has, this one has a full 180* cut out of it, with about 1/8th of an inch left around the perimeter).

There are still more parts that need to surface, but those have yet to evolve (crank sensing stuff basically). The short of it is taking any year Opti distributor and refitting it with LSx cam sensing technology. I had thought about throwing in some Vortec parts, but those parts seemed a bit bulky for what I wanted to accomplish. The cam sensor will either a) mount on the blank opti cap, with the height of the cap determined by the length of the sensor chosen, OR find a flush mount sensor (like the Opti sensor, but not using optical pickup) and mount it to the Opti base where the original sensor was. This would be ideal, since this would allow continued use of the distributor (The 4x crank/1x cam can be run by the 0411 with the Vortec 5700 OS from the Express Van), further reducing costs.

Depending on how the new shutter wheel is cut, it could also work with the N*DIS as well. Going that route, a new crank reluctor would have to be cut. To take care of the needed 2nd crank signal, I am wondering if it is possible to send the one crank signal to a circuit card that will 1) Pass an unaltered signal through it to act as signal 1, and 2) Pass the same signal but retarded 27*(?) at all times to act as signal 2. In theory, that would work.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this??

[EagleMark]

Slight hijacking is fine to learn enough to start your own thread. We encourage conversation and learning.

EFI Connection has done this but I like you, would rather do my own, let alone cost.

I think machining a cam reluctor for Opti like dave w does, then machine a cap to elimanate cap and orotor would be cost effective and look good when done. Since I have an Lt1, when it needs an Opti I could probably do this cheaper than cost of Opti.

Here's some good info from EFI Connection on the swap in PDF below.

[JeepsAndGuns]

If your talking about using the northstar dis system, then I am guessing you want rid of the distributor. So why not just install the 24x crank trigger wheel and run the coil per plug ignition the 411 pcm can run.
You chevy guys have it easy when it comes to running the 411 pcm.

[dave w]

I like the idea of using custom designed externally mounted (on or around the harmonic balancer) Crank / Cam reluctors and sensors. Might take me a few hours in CAD to get something designed. Seems to me the only low cost way to convert the 96 / 97 LT1 to an '0411 is the externally mount the '0411 OEM parts. I did something similar with the 4x '0411 crank position sensor and reluctor. I can get things made with either Wire EDM or a CNC machine.

dave w

[EagleMark]

If your talking about using the northstar dis system, then I am guessing you want rid of the distributor. So why not just install the 24x crank trigger wheel and run the coil per plug ignition the 411 pcm can run.
You chevy guys have it easy when it comes to running the 411 pcm.

Don't think there is a 24 tooth relector wheel available? Maybe aftermarket like EFI connection. The 24x crank sensor is an available GM part. The 96-97 LT1 have 4 tooth reluctor wheel for crank trigger. The 94-95 LT1 do not use crank trigger but can bolt on 96-97 timing cover with crank trigger sensor, for that matter I think it bolts to all SB chevy engines.

[sandrock]

If your talking about using the northstar dis system, then I am guessing you want rid of the distributor. So why not just install the 24x crank trigger wheel and run the coil per plug ignition the 411 pcm can run.
You chevy guys have it easy when it comes to running the 411 pcm.

I like to keep options open. Obviously keeping the dizzy portion of the Opti operational would significantly lower costs for anyone wanting to upgrade an LT1 to the 0411. DIS would be the next cheapest as you can find those coils in damn near any junkyard. Coil near plug would be the high end of the scale, but would require the 24x reluctor (which only exists aftermarket and at a very high cost...somewhere around 200 bucks). For the sake of getting my build operational, I'm going to concentrate my efforts on keeping the Opti dizzy operational.

I've done some research last night and from the looks of things, the three OEM sources for the type of cam sensing and packaging I need are GM (Vortec sensor and custom reluctor), Mitsubishi, and Hyundai. The sensors are Hall-effect, and look like they take a disk as a reluctor....exactly what is needed. I left my list at the house, but I had picked about 6 of them out. So long as they send the required signal out, the PCM won't care where they came from.

[EagleMark]

The Opti already has a Mitsubishi optical sensor and the reluctor ring is a thin disc, I wonder if you could just use what's there? I'll attach a pdf for the Opti information.

Keeping the Opti distributor and running coil on cylinder has already been done.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...egory_Code=C51

More than you'll ever need to know about the Opti Distributor from GM!

[sandrock]

I can't use an Opti sensor or trigger wheel as they are....the 0411 won't play well with it at all. The Mitsubishi sensors I've been spying on ebay were meant for their 2.0 liter engines, and a few 3.0 engines, with Hall-effect cam sensing. Here's a pic of a Hyundai sensor...same as a Mits, just different connector.



It looks similar to the Opti sensor, hopefully it will mount the same or close to it.

Here's the Vortec sensor...


And a Ford reluctor


Just modify that Ford reluctor to spit out one signal.

[EagleMark]

So the Opti sensor is wrong signal? Even if it had the correct reluctor?

I have an Opti here taken apart and was trying to find a replacement bearing to rebuild it. The sensor and trigger wheel (relector) are very reliable. Problems are moistre, venting and Oring seals are when they have problems with all the high voltage spark from coil to spark plug wires. If high voltage spark was gone it would be foolproof. Actually it is foolproof for over 100k miles. Some guys have over 200k on them with new cap-rotor and seals. I found the moisture/ air leak in origanal design is the bearing to housing! If it were sealed then it would be vacuum tight and the vent system would be 100%, now it's not!

[sandrock]

I sent an email to EFI Connections and asked if they had explored the option of just changing out the Opti wheel to spit out the corrected signal. They responded back saying the signal coming out of one they tried that on was garbage. And in every instance I've seen where an Opti distributor is used and the LT1 PCM isn't, there's always been some sort of translator box in between the two.

The biggest issue with doing away with the dizzy and going coil near plug is the crank reluctor. For the LT1 and the Vortec 350, the rear of the block has one, maybe two, areas near the bellhousing that look like they may be places for crank sensors that got lost in evolution. If that's the case, bolting on a reluctor to the front of the flywheel could be a very easy way to get that signal (IF the engine is already out). EFI xn did their design to be easliy fitted into the engine w/o taking it out, but...this could work too.

[EagleMark]

Well that's one option and a good one if you had the engine out. I would get it done and ready even if I didn't use it at first!

But I can't see doing that in a good running car? So the options left are 96-97 timing chain cover that has the place for crank sensor and four tooth reluctor wheel and readily available parts from GM. But still have to get a keyway from GM and machine down crank hub to fit, or buy 96-97 crank hub? then single row timing chain cause double won't fit. If you've gone that deep you may as well make the cam sensor reluctor just like theirs and do away with the distributor completly. Or make a cam reluctor and cam signal sensor into Opti... seems like a step backwards since your already in there, gonna cost the same to make parts on cam as it is in Opti.

So cost wise if you need an Optispark distributor that's $400. plus labor to have best available ignition system of it's time. Good for another 100K miles. Tuner equiptment cheap and I already own OBDI

Don't think you could do cam cover, timing chain, reluctor, crank sensor, cam sensor and cam reluctor for $400? then still have to add 8 coils and plug wires, then wiring. then how much work to install an LS1 PCM? and cost? then need way expensive OBDII tuner equiptment. I see this turing into a $2000. upgrade at the low end!

Just priced the 24x system from EFI connection at $2120... still no tuner equiptment so $3100?

So for a $2000 upgrade I could do a new opti wires plugs headers exhaust cai roller rockers and probably a cam.....

For $2000 I can get a complete LS engine trans with harness and PCM from Spaldings in Spokane and install it in a car. Few years from now you could probably buy an LS engine car or truck for $2-3000

I was thinking of doing something like this, this winter because I have a waterpump or opti seal leaking, but I'm just going to service as neccessery and enjoy what I got.

Now what does the Moates RoadRunner require to run coil on plug? I know it will tune real time for LS1 engines but also heard it will run LT1? I've been wanting to buy a RoadRunner so I can buy TunerCat OBDII software license. It's the only way to get it since the rights were sold to Jet under the Dynamic Spectrum Tuner name. With Jet your at $100 license per vehicle. Tuner cat is no limit per VDF file. RoadRunner and Tunercat with all definitions and cables would be $2400. and I could tune OBDII cars forever without another penny for licenses...

[sandrock]

Some of it I already had.

Tuner - HP Tuners suite. Bought this for a previous project, made a few bucks with it. However, I feel that will change the more F-body owners in OKC know I have it. This was an ebay buy around 250, and it still had 4 credits left.

PCM - 25 bucks off of ebay. Bought for a Suburban project that went south.

Various connectors from harnesses I've collected through the years.

As much as I'd like to do coil on plug, the most cost effective option in this case would be to convert the opti to Hall effect and run it, with the second to convert the intake manifold to run a Vortec dizzy. And true, I wouldn't be doing any of this if I got a full running car in the first place. Instead I got a shell and I'm pieceing everything together bit by bit (My garage is like the ending scene from "The Iron Giant" where all of his pieces are slowly making their way across the world to his crash site so he can put himself back together)

So my costs for this are....
HP Tuner credit 100
Vortec Diz 50 (I actually had that beforehand, but I'll still include)
Timing cover 75 (with reluctor)
Manifold mod 250 (Obviously most expensive, but done right. Mount needs to be 1/4" above the surface, and egr will
probably need to be milled out. Not a big issue, I'll run linear EGR in its place)

Doing it that way, the cost isn't much more than a new Opti system, plus you relocate the dizzy in a much safer, though less convenient, place. HOWEVER, I'm still going to persue the 24x bellhouse reluctor idea, just because the engine is out and apart. It makes sense to do that now, so that way, like you said, it's there when I am ready to go COP.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Hopefully its not too off topic from this thread. But I have a question I have been wondering about for a good while now.
WHY is the tuning software for the 411 so dang expensive!?!? And whats the deal with this vin licencing/credits/etc.. that you have to have before you can even read and tune a pcm. Then, if you want to tune another pcm, you have to buy more.
I understand the people that made the software want to get paid for their efforts, and I think they should, but dang, it just seems a little excessiave. $500 is a far cry from $40 for tunerpro. And the thing where you have to continue to pay if you want to tune more pcm's just seems like highway robbery. Heck, the 411 is coming up on being almost 12 years old now.

[dave w]

Hopefully its not too off topic from this thread. But I have a question I have been wondering about for a good while now.
WHY is the tuning software for the 411 so dang expensive!?!? And whats the deal with this vin licencing/credits/etc.. that you have to have before you can even read and tune a pcm. Then, if you want to tune another pcm, you have to buy more.
I understand the people that made the software want to get paid for their efforts, and I think they should, but dang, it just seems a little excessiave. $500 is a far cry from $40 for tunerpro. And the thing where you have to continue to pay if you want to tune more pcm's just seems like highway robbery. Heck, the 411 is coming up on being almost 12 years old now.

I felt the same way about the '0411 software I own. I felt as if I was robbed without the mask and hand gun.

dave

[sandrock]

Biggest thing for HP Tuners is the interface. Reading OBD2 is one thing, but writing to it is another. Given the fact that a new HP Tuner kit comes with 8 license credits, you are *essentially* getting 400 dollars worth of credits and 100 for the tuner. But the funny thing is, you can't buy JUST the tuner with no credits, so I dunno.

The licensing sucks. I had to pay 200 bucks to be able to tune the PCM in my Bonneville, which is from an '05 Impala. 100 bucks went to unlocking the Impala PCM and tuning it. But once I discovered it would not allow the engine to run because it wanted to actually see a body control module, I had to flash a 2003 Grand Prix OS to it (which didn't require a BCM), so another 100 bucks. HP Tuners caters mainly to tuner shops and not the DIY'r, so their pricing tiers reflect that.