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Thread: 4L60E tuning in $0D

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    Fuel Injected! Roadknee's Avatar
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    4L60E tuning in $0D

    I'm seeking insight into how the following tables under 4L60E line pressure parameters affect transmission operation in $0D:

    Pressure ramp delay time vs tps vs shift (sec)
    Extended ramping pressure time vs tps vs shift (sec)
    Initial ramping pressure vs tps vs shift (psi/sec)
    Ramping pressure vs tps vs shift (psi/sec)
    Post shift ramp time vs tps vs shift (sec)

    In the stock bin for my 1995 K1500, these tables are mostly unpopulated. There are some negative values (psi/sec) in the ramping pressure vs tps vs shift for the 1-2 shift. There is also a 0.5 second value in the corresponding cells in the pressure ramp delay time vs tps vs shift.

    I assume these tables modify line pressure during the line pressure modulation time during an upshift, but don't understand exactly how they function. I'd appreciate any guidance.

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    I looked through several of the $0D bins. In general the V8 bins are similar and the 4.3 V6 bins are similar to one another. Unfortunately there was not a performance application that used $0D for me to try and learn from. I spent a little bit of time experimenting with the above tables, but not enough to draw any conclusions. More on that later.

    I've made several changes to upshift/downshift mph vs tps vs gear tables and the TCC lock and unlock tables. I have it rev a little higher before upshift, downshift sooner, engage TCC later and disengage TCC sooner for a more performance oriented feel. Much of this is personal preference.

    The biggest improvement was locking the TCC in third gear. With the stock BJYL tune, the trans upshifts to 4th at 29 mph under light throttle and never locks the TCC in third. The TC slips considerably when running around town at 35 mph in fourth gear. I delayed upshift to 4th under light throttle to 44 mph and engage TCC in third at 32 mph. It feels a lot better now and takes considerably less throttle running around town.

    I also set the Lower Low Speed TPS and Upper Low Speed TPS to Prevent TCC Cycling to 0% to keep the TCC locked on deceleration at 0% TPS. As long as MPH is below the MPH for Using Low Speed TPS Thresholds the TCC will remain locked. I temporarily set the Low MPH to 84 and high MPH to 86 for a test. The TCC would remain locked on deceleration in fourth gear, and it behaves like a manual trans. In third gear, the TCC appears to remain locked, but the trans shifts to 4th at 0% TPS. It loses a little rpm on deceleration. As soon as I touch the throttle it returns to 3rd gear TCC locked rpm. If I pull the shift lever into third gear, it stays in third and the TCC stays locked on deceleration, and it behaves like a manual trans. I searched through the BIN, but couldn't find any way to keep the trans in 3rd gear during deceleration with the selector in fourth gear.

    There are a second set of parameters, High Speed TPS to Prevent Repeated TCC Cycling. As long as these are populated with positive numbers, the TCC will disengage on deceleration when the actual vehicle speed is above the Upper and Lower MPH for Using Low Speed TPS thresholds. I set these to 46 and 44 mph, respectively. Thus, in 4th gear and above 46 mph, the TCC unlocks on deceleration. I didn't care for the feel with it locked in fourth during DFCO. It really slows the truck down.
    Last edited by Roadknee; 03-21-2014 at 05:38 PM.

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    I will put in what I know. I assume this is a 94 through 95 PCM for GM Truck. If I remember right the cals below
    Pressure ramp delay time vs tps vs shift (sec)
    Extended ramping pressure time vs tps vs shift (sec)
    Initial ramping pressure vs tps vs shift (psi/sec)
    Ramping pressure vs tps vs shift (psi/sec)
    Post shift ramp time vs tps vs shift (sec)

    Are for what is called " Pressure Profile". In short these cals (with many more) are to alter PTS (pressure Torque Signal) or what you would call line pressure, during an upshift event. The system is complex to explain and complex to calibrate. It takes a "Stack" or about $10k of instrumentation to develop the cals and data collection at a few milliseconds to set these calibrations. It takes many hours to do this and I would suggest you leave these alone. (It is very easy to burn a set of clutches while trying these out if you have no experience) If you try anything I would set the negative pressure cals to 0 PSI and see if it shifts harder.
    The calibrations COULD be UN-USED for a 4L60-E and might not even function if it was a 4L80-E. I began calibrations in 95 with the 4L80-E. I do know the 4L60-E did NOT have pressure profile shifts with the VCM (black box under hood starting in late 95 and full 96 through some 2000. Has 4 connectors) or the early PCM has 2 80 pin connectors.) The 4L60-E had some pressure profile shifts when they developed Model Ratio around 2000 or 02 IF I remember right. (Sometimes if you check the 4L80-E then the software runs those cals and the routine, if the L60 is detected (by an unchecked 4L80 box) it may not run the routine or cals. )
    These areas or calibrations are sometimes used by the trans calibrator to identify his or her cals so during the development he can track and know what is what by these numbers. It is his own tracking system and numbering. When someone in Truck calls you up and states it does this or that, you have them send the cal via email. You open it and see what your cals are. Most times they pull the wrong cal from the internal system and load it into the test vehicles.
    If they do function in a 4L60-E Maybe I don't remember correctly. It was 95 and was many controllers ago and hundreds of software level changes and a few cal changes.

    If I had an 4L60-E I would suggest this but 1st you should know this:
    Line pressure is directly related to fuel economy and L60 pressures were a bit low at steady cruise and would increase the pressure to upshift the trans. The L80 would run higher pressures (or steady state pressures) and decrease pressure to upshift. If you have an L60 Keep the engine speed up in 4th. (Don't upshift the trans early into 4th. especially if you tow or increase the load) Raise the pressures up somewhat in the calibration in the 4L60-E in the steady state tables. (One bad item I see with these hacked xdf files is the LACK THE TRUE DEFINITION OF WHAT THE CAL ACTUALLY DOES.)
    Another item with the 4L60-E is the 3-4 clutch. I suggest you use the GM 7 plate with the GM plate thicknesses of the steels. If you add or change to 10 plates, it may seem like it will last but these thinner steels and frictions (with steel plates as well the paper is glued to) will not take the heat generated and will burn. I asked the person that ran the study on these @ gm and got the low down. I would run a deep pan with a filter extension AND A big cooler. Big and 1.5 inches thick and a plate type from Long industries not the tube cooler.)
    Last edited by billygraves; 03-03-2014 at 11:06 PM.

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    I zero'd the negative numbers in the 1-2 ramping pressure tables. It was inconclusive whether it made any difference. So I turned to the 0-64 mph and 64-128 mph pressure tables. I compared these to the 1994 Cadillac V4P which is said to shift pretty well. My K1500 pressures were higher below 50% TPS and the V4P tables were higher 50% and above. I copied the V4P values 50% TPS and above into my K1500 tables. The top several rows in the V4P tables go to 90 psi where my K1500 pressures peak at 59 psi.

    What a difference. The WOT 1-2 shift is firm. It doesn't bang; just a nice firm shift. The 2-3 shift actually hit a little too hard, so I reduced the pressures either side of 60 mph in the proximity of the WOT 2-3 shift to 78 psi. This made the 2-3 shift feel like the 1-2 shift. When datalogging, the WOT shift times are about 0.3 seconds, compared to 0.5 seconds with the stock K1500 tables. Downshifts feel a lot better too. Nothing hits hard; just feels like a daily driven performance trans should.

    Earlier I modified the appropriate table to lock the TCC in third gear. One thing I did not like was the way it unlocked prior to the 3-4 shift. Prior to the shift it would unlock and the motor would rev up for several seconds, then shift with an rpm drop. Not a big deal; just kinda annoying. I unchecked a flag to unlock TSS during upshift. I was a bit nervous about this thinking the shift would bang with the TCC locked, but its fine. The 3-4 shift now feels similar to how the TCC locks in OD. One interesting observation about the code is that in order for the TCC to remain locked during upshift, the 4th gear TCC release speed must be less than the 3-4 upshift speed. If the 4th gear TCC release speed is higher than the 3-4 shift speed, the TCC will unlock prior to upshift.

    I haven't had a chance to feel a 3-4 upshift with the TCC locked at higher speed (say 75 mph) and higher TPS. I'll have to see if it hits too hard. I did program the shift points to prevent 3-4 shifts above 50% TPS so I think it will be fine since the shift pressures are relatively low. Will report back if its an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadknee View Post
    I zero'd the negative numbers in the 1-2 ramping pressure tables. It was inconclusive whether it made any difference. So I turned to the 0-64 mph and 64-128 mph pressure tables. I compared these to the 1994 Cadillac V4P which is said to shift pretty well. My K1500 pressures were higher below 50% TPS and the V4P tables were higher 50% and above. I copied the V4P values 50% TPS and above into my K1500 tables. The top several rows in the V4P tables go to 90 psi where my K1500 pressures peak at 59 psi.

    What a difference. The WOT 1-2 shift is firm. It doesn't bang; just a nice firm shift. The 2-3 shift actually hit a little too hard, so I reduced the pressures either side of 60 mph in the proximity of the WOT 2-3 shift to 78 psi. This made the 2-3 shift feel like the 1-2 shift. When datalogging, the WOT shift times are about 0.3 seconds, compared to 0.5 seconds with the stock K1500 tables. Downshifts feel a lot better too. Nothing hits hard; just feels like a daily driven performance trans should.

    Earlier I modified the appropriate table to lock the TCC in third gear. One thing I did not like was the way it unlocked prior to the 3-4 shift. Prior to the shift it would unlock and the motor would rev up for several seconds, then shift with an rpm drop. Not a big deal; just kinda annoying. I unchecked a flag to unlock TSS during upshift. I was a bit nervous about this thinking the shift would bang with the TCC locked, but its fine. The 3-4 shift now feels similar to how the TCC locks in OD. One interesting observation about the code is that in order for the TCC to remain locked during upshift, the 4th gear TCC release speed must be less than the 3-4 upshift speed. If the 4th gear TCC release speed is higher than the 3-4 shift speed, the TCC will unlock prior to upshift.

    I haven't had a chance to feel a 3-4 upshift with the TCC locked at higher speed (say 75 mph) and higher TPS. I'll have to see if it hits too hard. I did program the shift points to prevent 3-4 shifts above 50% TPS so I think it will be fine since the shift pressures are relatively low. Will report back if its an issue.
    All I can tell you is Good Luck and if you cook a set of clutches, I hope you don't mind pulling it out to overhaul it. It usually gets expensive. If I had an L60 all I would change is the steady state pressure to increase it, increase the upshift pressures and really add some PTS to the TCC ON in 4th.
    If you think the 10 pack of the 3-4 clutch is a good set up, you are mistaken. The clutch design was NOT THOUGHLY thought out. This is why GM ran test after test on all of these and did NOT change to them. They seem like a good idea but do not hold up with any HEAT. The clutches are very thin and will NOT tolerate HEAT and there is not enough capacity in the steels to carry the heat from the shift to the oil without going over the temp of the clutch material or bonding agents. I would use the OEM 7 cl 3-4 set up thickness. Never tow or run a L60 in 4th with TCC on at low Engine RPM. It will burn the 3-4 cl. Best of luck to ya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billygraves View Post
    All I can tell you is Good Luck and if you cook a set of clutches, I hope you don't mind pulling it out to overhaul it. It usually gets expensive. If I had an L60 all I would change is the steady state pressure to increase it, increase the upshift pressures and really add some PTS to the TCC ON in 4th.
    If you think the 10 pack of the 3-4 clutch is a good set up, you are mistaken. The clutch design was NOT THOUGHLY thought out. This is why GM ran test after test on all of these and did NOT change to them. They seem like a good idea but do not hold up with any HEAT. The clutches are very thin and will NOT tolerate HEAT and there is not enough capacity in the steels to carry the heat from the shift to the oil without going over the temp of the clutch material or bonding agents. I would use the OEM 7 cl 3-4 set up thickness. Never tow or run a L60 in 4th with TCC on at low Engine RPM. It will burn the 3-4 cl. Best of luck to ya.
    Thanks for the feedback Billy. I post (1) to share my observations with others and (2) obtain feedback if something in my tuning methodology may cause issues. I won't even pretend to have a thorough understanding of the mechanics of the 4L60E. Thus, for the benefit of myself and others that may read this, could you please describe what specifically in my tune puts the 3-4 clutches at risk? Also, does my OEM 1995 trans have the 10-clutch 3-4 pack? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadknee View Post
    Thanks for the feedback Billy. I post (1) to share my observations with others and (2) obtain feedback if something in my tuning methodology may cause issues. I won't even pretend to have a thorough understanding of the mechanics of the 4L60E. Thus, for the benefit of myself and others that may read this, could you please describe what specifically in my tune puts the 3-4 clutches at risk? Also, does my OEM 1995 trans have the 10-clutch 3-4 pack? Thanks.
    To my knowledge it is not any specifics within your cal or another unless you decrease pressure at some point. I do not know of any L60/65/70 that has the 10 clutches in the 3-4 clutch. The clutch I am telling you about is from the aftermarket and many have used them. Some have great success with them. I personally talked to the persona that ran the tests on the L60 years ago. That is why I suggested you use the OEM set up for them. Another item with L60's is the cooler. Run a large one. I would run the oil into the rad first then the external as the L80 does. The L60 uses the rad to stabilize the fluid temp that in turn produces stable shifts. The L60 (I heard) is a bit more sensitive to temps than L80. But this is from an OEM viewpoint.
    If you run a Borg-warner PSC or FOrce Motor, I suggest you increase the pressures. As time or sediment occurs and builds around the armature of the FM the output pressure is decreased. The L80 will "Adapt" to this decrease but I suggest to add 15 to 20 PTS. I leave the adapts to correct for other leaks internally.
    This is a complex subject and opinions are everywhere. I like quick shifts and a bit higher pressures. Yes this drives up fuel use and heat but I run a large cooler and a bit of fuel is worth not having to pull it out to me.
    The L60 family in 4th gear & TCC on at low engine speed has low pump capacity and in my opinion, the 3-4 cl pack needs more to survive. This is why you tow in D3.

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    I set up a monitor to datalog TPS, trans temp, torque signal pressure and RPM and experimented with the following tables:

    Pressure ramp delay time vs tps vs shift (sec)
    Extended ramping pressure time vs tps vs shift (sec)
    Initial ramping pressure vs tps vs shift (psi/sec)
    Ramping pressure vs tps vs shift (psi/sec)
    Post shift ramp time vs tps vs shift (sec)

    Preliminary findings are summarized below. These are preliminary because I failed to save the datalog, and am going off memory what I observed. Note my son was driving the truck while I worked the laptop.

    1) Ramping pressure (psi/sec) increases or decreases line pressure for the actual time (sec) taken to complete the shift.

    2) Pressure ramp delay time (sec) delays the initiation of ramping pressure. For example, if delay time is set for 0.5 second, the shift will begin, and continue for 0.5 second until the onset of any ramping pressure change.

    3) Initial ramping pressure (psi/sec) works in conjunction with the pressure ramp delay time. Some stock 4.3V6 tunes have 0.3 second delay time, positive initial ramping pressure and negative ramping pressure. Line pressure is increased at the initial ramping pressure rate for 0.3 seconds, and then reduced at the ramping pressure rate for the duration of the shift. (Note: It appeared in the data monitor that the initial ramping pressure took effect before any engine RPM reduction from the shift. However, I lost the datalog and will need to retest and verify this later.)

    4) Extended ramping pressure time (sec) continues to increase or decrease pressure after the shift is completed at the ramping pressure rate. Pressure cannot exceed 90 psi (maximum in the BJYL tune) or fall below 0 psi.

    5) Post shift ramp time (sec) was inconclusive. I'll need to do more testing. I assume this is the amount of time to return line pressure to "normal" after the shift is completed.

    It also appears that the total time for shift pressure ramping can not exceed the line pressure modulation time in the 4L60E Line Pressure Parameters (1.2 seconds for all upshifts in the BJYL tune).

    And the good news is trans temps stayed cool and I don't appear to have burnt any clutches.
    Last edited by Roadknee; 03-24-2014 at 06:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadknee View Post

    And the good news is trans temps stayed cool and I don't appear to have burnt any clutches.
    I wish you the best. I did this for a living and have seen and done set up the same way you have. Then I had the unit pulled to re-green and the guys found semi-burned plates and steels. I looked over all the cals and found some that might have caused the clutch to feel really good and gain in GMUTS ratings. All of us did this at one time or another. It helped but ONE FAT FINGER or Mistake when entering a calibration just burns more than the plates.
    Just a word. If you start to decrease pressure in a L60 and it feels better or softer, then more than likely you are slipping some of them during the shift. Keep in mind that the L60 calibrated pressures on the low side to help with fuel economy where L80 error on the durability side and added 40 to 50% additional.
    Even with the Holley Force Motor I would be adding a bit of steady state pressure.
    I tend to like larger orifices in the spacer plate and light accum springs. I can pull a bit of pts from the shift but when the miles hit 100k plus then I know the clutch/band will have the volume it needs to last.
    My hat is OFF TO YOU SIR for trying this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billygraves View Post
    If you start to decrease pressure in a L60 and it feels better or softer, then more than likely you are slipping some of them during the shift. Keep in mind that the L60 calibrated pressures on the low side to help with fuel economy where L80 error on the durability side and added 40 to 50% additional.
    Given a stock 4L60E calibration... what pressure or pressures would you adjust? For overall durability. Not for economy or for gentle shifts which GM called sales shifts, you know the big 1,2,3 sssslllluuuusssshhhh feel of a Caddilac. I like to feel a trans shift. But I do not like to feel it bang. I'm not asking for shift feel, I'm asking for overall safe improvements!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Given a stock 4L60E calibration... what pressure or pressures would you adjust? For overall durability. Not for economy or for gentle shifts which GM called sales shifts, you know the big 1,2,3 sssslllluuuusssshhhh feel of a Caddilac. I like to feel a trans shift. But I do not like to feel it bang. I'm not asking for shift feel, I'm asking for overall safe improvements!
    On the otherhand I like how my 4L80E shifts with authority. Tends to break the tires loose anywhere over 1/2 throttle on the 1-2 shift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Given a stock 4L60E calibration... what pressure or pressures would you adjust? For overall durability. Not for economy or for gentle shifts which GM called sales shifts, you know the big 1,2,3 sssslllluuuusssshhhh feel of a Caddilac. I like to feel a trans shift. But I do not like to feel it bang. I'm not asking for shift feel, I'm asking for overall safe improvements!
    Was there ever a reply to this question? I, too, would like some advice on safe pressures for safe, firm shifts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Given a stock 4L60E calibration... what pressure or pressures would you adjust? For overall durability. Not for economy or for gentle shifts which GM called sales shifts, you know the big 1,2,3 sssslllluuuusssshhhh feel of a Caddilac. I like to feel a trans shift. But I do not like to feel it bang. I'm not asking for shift feel, I'm asking for overall safe improvements!
    Mark, To name certain calibrations is very difficult. Each software set has different names. Like the 91-93, then 94-95. These are similar. The 96 forward had completely different names and the names were long, not 8 char. Some sets have calibrations that you can inturperate as included in this set, but actually it doesn't.
    I would increase the shift pressure and the steady state pressure for 4L60-E. 4L60-E may seem to have adapts in the PRE 96 or 95 back, but it wasn't intended to have it. Adapts are for Input speed applications. An increasee in PTS you are moving in the right direction.

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    Taking a quick look it appears the tables saying psi are wrong in this xdf like it is in other definitions. The 4L60e operates at 200psi plus so how can 90psi make sense for a maximum line pressure? With the max pressure scalar left set at 90psi, the code will take the main pressure table and then add any modifier table values before looking the answer up in the force motor table and applying that current to the line pressure. The "psi" adding the tables together is basically divided by the max pressure scalar so increasing the max pressure and increasing the tables would actually do nothing useful.
    Last edited by lionelhutz; 08-28-2014 at 11:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lionelhutz View Post
    Taking a quick look it appears the tables saying psi are wrong in this xdf like it is in other definitions. The 4L60e operates at 200psi plus so how can 90psi make sense for a maximum line pressure? With the max pressure scalar left set at 90psi, the code will take the main pressure table and then add any modifier table values before looking the answer up in the force motor table and applying that current to the line pressure. The "psi" adding the tables together is basically divided by the max pressure scalar so increasing the max pressure and increasing the tables would actually do nothing useful.
    First I would like to say is this. The XDF files are NOT what actually came from the calibration. They are reverse engineered and they have mistakes. Addresses and verbiage. Scaling of variables can be off. You see this in what you are describing and have missed how the trans pressures are set in the calibration.
    The calibration value 0 to 90 is actually a PTS. Pressure Torque Signal. The pressure the force motor makes on the Pressure regulator line up. Plus the area and the spring pressure in each selector range except in Reverse where the Rev boost compounds the pressure to a higher value. So you say the trans runs at 200 PSI but the cal is 90. 90 PTS not PSI. This is where the reverse engineered XDF's have you at a disadvantage. I have not sat and compared each value in these reverse engineered files and won't. It takes to much time and there are many calibrations missing.
    You can have a 4L80-E in Drive Range and the calibration at the given place is 90 PTS. The Trans Line Pressure in PSI will be aprox 170 PSI measured. If it is in Reverse it is much higher as you can easily see in a hydraulic flow chart. This will help explain what PTS is and PSI are when you are calibrating the transmission. I hope this make sense.

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