Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 49

Thread: Northstar DIS

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    alabama
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,702

    Northstar DIS

    So I was reading through some of the links in the FAQ/conversion links thread at the top, and read about that caddy northstar DIS and module. Seems verry interesting and cool.
    So, I was wondering, can this work the the 16197427 pcm? I had been having thoughts about DIS as the next step/project after I get done with my MPFI intake swap. The local pull a part junkyard is chock full of caddys with those northstars, so the parts could be had cheap. All I would have to do is have a crank trigger wheel made and then make a mounting bracket for the pickups.
    So, is it possiable with the 7427 pcm, or just a pipe dream?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Yes, it can be made to work. Some of the offsets and scalers will need to be changed to give the additional "timing" required to the EST line. IIRC the N* DIS requires an additional 70* over what a dizzy bin would need.

    1project2many will have another way to do it that involves negative values.

    Both ways work, although I haven't been able to get the negative values way to work myself.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  3. #3
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    63
    Posts
    10,477

    Re: Northstar DIS

    What does the Northstar coils look like? They single coil on cylinder like LS? I had planned that on a six banger I sold and sold the project parts. Was going to use LS coils as they are cheap, the rich guys buy MSD coils and I have seen the take offs for $20 a piece.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Northstar DIS

    One version of the N* coil pack, looks just the 60 degree V6 coil pack, with an extra coil. The other version is separated onto each cylinder head, and AFAIK is triggered directly from the PCM. It is the former N* coil pack that is desired. I also have a project in mind for the N* coil pack, and I have the coil pack already. Just need the sensors and wheel. ;)

    This is the one to use:


    More pictures here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 94&t=37780
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  5. #5
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    63
    Posts
    10,477

    Re: Northstar DIS

    So I could buy a cheap little V6 car and convert to MS? My buddys got a Quad Four with four coils under the top engine cover, timing chain slipped, he'd probably sell/give me cheap... does MegaSquirt do Nitrous?

    That's 3 things I want to do, not necessarily together, DIS, Nitrous and Megasquirt...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  6. #6
    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    alabama
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,702

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Not converting to megasquirt myself. So I would like to keep this as close on the topic of the 7427 as I can. This, if goes well, could possiably be a good refrence for future swappers!

    The coil pack pictured above is the one that the junkyard is chock full of.
    It appears, after reading that post in the FAQ,
    http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=380
    that the 1x cam sensor input you simply leave un hooked, as it appears the DIS module only passes that signal through to the pcm for injector firing (if I am reading it correctly).
    I'm guessing that you would be completely removing the current ignition module? And the 4 wires from the pcm that went to that module simply need to be hooked up to the correct pins on the caddy module/coil pack?
    Also more specifics about what bin mods need to be done would be great too!
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Yes, the dizzy ICm gets removed/disconnected and those wires do get connected to the new DIS ICM. They are the same signals between the dizzy and DIS systems, as I said, the major difference is the EST signal has an additional amount of "timing" on it to align the spark with the correct piston at the proper time before TDC.

    Mark, yes MS will run virtually anything. The Quad 4 ignition is not one I would chose for any conversion, however, because it's molded to fit the Q4 only.
    If you wanted to convert a 4 cyl to DIS using a GM ECM, I would use the 1987 to 1995 2.0L/2.2L OHV ignition system (maybe up to '98, I don't recall when there was a major change). It uses a simple 6+1 wheel.

    Like this one:


    For a 6 cylinder, the 60 degree V6 DIS used from 1987 to 2005 or so, works well, and uses the same simple 6+1 wheel that the 4 Cyl I suggested above does.

    3400 coil pack, 2.8, 3.1 and 3100 all similar;


    The two above DIS systems, look very similar to the above pictured N* DIS, the difference being 2 and 3 coils, instead of 4.

    The N* also has another large change from the 4 and 6 cyl DIS in that it uses a very complicated trigger wheel that uses notches spaced unevenly, and uses two crank position sensors, that between the two and some match with in the ICM, it determines where in crank rotation the engine is, to fire which coil.

    There is another 8 Cylinder DIS system, though it is more rare, that being from the LT5. This DIS system uses a much more simple trigger wheel, looks kinda like the above DIS systems, but is quite rare and very expensive, even used if you can find them.

    LT5 coil pack


    There is another commonly available 6 cylinder coil pack, that uses the same coils, but a different ICM, and a different offset, or amount of required additional "timing" in the EST signal. This would be the 3800 coil pack. There are more connections, though I don't think all are needed, just for basic ignition control, and the plug is at one end of the ICM, not separated into 3 different plugs like the the 60 degree V6 coil pack. I don't know what the trigger wheel looks like for this one, I haven't researched it enough to find out. I do plan on testing one at some point, just to see if there is any appreciable difference between this and the 60 degree V6 coil pack.

    Note the difference in connectors:


    I only posted the link to the MSextra thread for those interested in more pictures and more info, not to steer anyone towards MS.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  8. #8
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    63
    Posts
    10,477

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
    I only posted the link to the MSextra thread for those interested in more pictures and more info, not to steer anyone towards MS.
    Sure ya did...

    Personally I think MS is way cool and want to do one one day. But right now my four vehicles are set.

    Excellent DIS history lesson there Six Shooter! So bottom line to install DIS is need to add Crank Signal Sensor? Looks like there are plug in option DIS coil packs for TBI harness. Then set up bin correctly?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Yeah, that's the long and short of it.

    Don't take the years or applications I posted as gospel, it was just a quick run down of what I could recall off hand. There are many other vehicles to get the 4 and 6 cyl coil packs from.

    If you look in my build thread for the Datsun, you'll see the trigger wheel and coil pack install, though I'm not sure I have updated pictures of the coil pack location in there.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    alabama
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,702

    Re: Northstar DIS

    So how exactly does the DIS module fire the coils? From the pictures there is only two wires going to the actual coil. So does one get power, and then the other get grounded when it needs to fire, basicly like the injectors? Or is there more to it than that? I am trying to learn here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
    They are the same signals between the dizzy and DIS systems.
    Are you saying that you still have to run the distributor with the caddy coil pack? I thought the whole idea of this, was to get rid of the distributor. Or am I reading this wrong? A bit confused.
    Or do you mean the signals going into the pcm from the northstar DIS module, are the same as the signals that the original tbi ignition module sends to the pcm?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Northstar DIS

    The DIS coils work exactly like a single coil system. 12V ignition is applied to the positive terminal and a trigger is applied and removed from the negative side to fire the coil.

    No, the dizzy can be removed (though you still need to find a way to drive the oil pump).

    The signals between the DIS to the ECM are the same as a dizzy ICM to the ECM, just with some timing changes overall. The colours, description and use are the same.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Here is a thread with N* info. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-p ... dizzy.html

    It's funny to look back and see what I didn't know and what I know now. I've posted in that thread under both user names i've had on TGO.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  13. #13
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    63
    Posts
    10,477

    Re: Northstar DIS

    Dual personalities ay?

    Here's a good PDF on ignition systems. From the looks of one of the pictures Six Shooter posted there is the 2 plugs, some same as TBI distributor but on the other side is another plug. I'm sure there has to be a power supply for coils.

    Here's a very informative PDF for DIS and so much more...
    Attached Files Attached Files

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  14. #14
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    63
    Posts
    10,477

    Re: Northstar DIS

    That NorthStar module needs 2 crank signals and a cam signal. so there has to be an easier way to make the coils work with just a crank signal.
    Attached Images Attached Images

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  15. #15
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    63
    Posts
    10,477

    Re: Northstar DIS

    I read in the thirdgen thread that some marine LT1 engines came with a NorthStar ignition. This reminded me of the 24x system.
    http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/24x.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

    And their 58 system that uses the crank signal and a cam signal from the distributor.
    http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/58x.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

    Now if Dave w shows up he will show us his crank toothed wheel he uses, one I think he was doing for an IH motor. While we were talking about this I had suggested building a reluctor wheel for inside a distributor, this would give crank and cam signals needed. You could cap off the distributor just like they did on the 58 system above.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •