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Thread: 454 TBI Swap 78 K30 Trouble with TunerproRT and Winaldl, etc.

  1. #16
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5cottymac View Post
    So been trying to fool this thing all day with no notable progress.

    I warmed up engine to operating temp and made sure tstat was open at 200 degrees. I revved and held engine at 2k RPM to ensure IAC was completely closed...
    What would make you think the IAC was completely closed like this? Seriously I'd like to know...

    More RPM and IAC opens more, it's called the throttle follower.

    Here's the Procedure for setting IAC... but I don't use it anymore as I have found that adjusting IAC when motor is warmed up and driven for a data log that at end of log I idle in gear a minute and in neutral for a minute. Look at IAC counts! Keep them under 20... if they are 40 then turn throttle stop screw (has nothing to do with idlae RPM setting) in 1/4 turn to let more air over throttle blades and less through IAC. When done you need to turn engine off for a minute and restart so PCM calculates TPS % to 0, it does this every time. This is why having your foot on gas pedal when turning key on is a bad thing.

    2. IAC reset/min idle speed- This sets the throttle plate on the throttle body to a specific rpm. It should be set to 100-125 RPM below idle commanded in bin file. At ALDL connector you need to put a jumper between pins A and B of the connector. These are pins A9 (what/blk) and A12 (blk/wht) on the ECM. This puts the ECM into ALDL mode. Turn the key on (not start) and the IAC should drive completely closed. You will normally hear a buzzing from the IAC. If you have the TunerPro running up and running on your laptop, or a Scan Tool you should see the IAC went from 145 to 0. Now unplug the IAC connector. Turn the key off. Remove jumper. Start motor. If the idle is too low you may have to keep it running. On the front drivers side of the throttle body is the adjustment screw. It will probably be behind a silver plug. If so just use a drill bit slowly to drill a hole, not to deep as to damage the torx screw behind it, just enough to use a punch to grab it and remove it. Then use a #20 torx bit to adjust the idle speed to at least 100 rpm less then your warm idle speed in bin. If 600 then set to 500 rpm. You are looking for the lowest consistent idle your motor will do. When set, turn off motor and reconnect the IAC. I try to keep the IAC count to at least 10-20 with the motor warm and idling. Higher number are OK but more air pushing gas past throttle blades on TBI engines is better!
    For your data how about checking what Pin the ALDL data is coming through on? Some cables can read both Pins but others need a specific pin. Code 12 and what your CEL is doing is a good thing!

    160 baud on pin E of ALDL port and 97427 is 8192 baud on pin M of ALDL port.
    You need 8192 Baud Pin M and then correct ADX... I forget what bin your using? $0E or $0D?

    Do you have a stock Memcal to put in and try it instead of the Howell?

    Set timing to 4*, clear codes. Check timing, where is it at when warmed up?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  2. #17
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    Fuel Pressure is 30psi, and the regulator works. From Howell -> 1995 HD 7.4 models used a higher 30psi fuel pressure to get needed flow from injectors. At first startup we had 15psi tbi pump and it definitely ran worse. Swapped to e2000 pump. Confirmed Regulator is working by pinching off return line and pressure runs up quickly. All new fuel lines so I doubt a blocked return line with the confirmed regulator operation.
    If you have good injectors that were serviced and they are correct lb/hr = part number.

    Also the E2000 pump will never keep up with fuel demands on this motor! It may idle and cruise, but at high load and RPM you will be running out of fuel = LEAN!!!

    Howell Harness for 95 C3500HD 7.4L, and Prom to remove VSS...
    This is just a stupid move on Howells part and you may never have a good idle with this PCM!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  3. #18
    Fuel Injected! brian617's Avatar
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    Which pin in the DLC connector is your serial data wire in? E or M?

    89 K1500 Scottsdale 5.7L 5spd 3:42 RamJet cam Dart iron TBI heads 427 PCM swap
    95 C2500 Cheyenne 6.5L turbo diesel 4L80e 4:10 DB2-4911 Manual pump conversion 0411 PCM trans control 2Bar COS
    05 Outback XT 2.5L turbo gas auto

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    What would make you think the IAC was completely closed like this? Seriously I'd like to know...

    More RPM and IAC opens more, it's called the throttle follower.

    Here's the Procedure for setting IAC... but I don't use it anymore as I have found that adjusting IAC when motor is warmed up and driven for a data log that at end of log I idle in gear a minute and in neutral for a minute. Look at IAC counts! Keep them under 20... if they are 40 then turn throttle stop screw (has nothing to do with idlae RPM setting) in 1/4 turn to let more air over throttle blades and less through IAC. When done you need to turn engine off for a minute and restart so PCM calculates TPS % to 0, it does this every time. This is why having your foot on gas pedal when turning key on is a bad thing.



    For your data how about checking what Pin the ALDL data is coming through on? Some cables can read both Pins but others need a specific pin. Code 12 and what your CEL is doing is a good thing!

    You need 8192 Baud Pin M and then correct ADX... I forget what bin your using? $0E or $0D?

    Do you have a stock Memcal to put in and try it instead of the Howell?

    Set timing to 4*, clear codes. Check timing, where is it at when warmed up?



    For two reason I know the IAC was closed completely. 1) I shorted the ALDL pins to put computer to check for DTCs, and turned key on. In theory, this extended the IAC to fully closed. I build a gauge from a piece of TIG filler wire to ride on tip of IAC, and show me how retracted/extended the IAC is. I then marked on my gauge location of IAC with key on, aldl pins shorted as a baseline. To ensure the theory works, Cranked up truck and watched on my homebrew gauge extension amount of IAC as the idle progress and as it revved. I confirmed fully closed position at 2k rpm no load, as well as theory of how to make ECM close IAC fully. Same postion mark on my homebrew gauge. To visually confirm this I watched the IAC open and fully close from top of throttle body.


    As for ALDL cables, both were wired for both pins.

    Timing is currently set at 4 degrees.

    I have not way to view IAC counts. I am using the BMHM bin, and $31 mask adx, and xdf.

    The howell "chip" is removeable. We have tried howell chip with this ECM #16197427 BMHM that is ECM that was out of 95 C3500HD donor truck. Also tried with and without Howell chip on spare 16197427 BDXJ ECM, that is a spare we borrowed from 1994 C1500 4.3 . The best combination is with Howell "chip" installed on the BMHM ECM, and results only worsen with other combinations.


    About fuel system.

    Inj #'s Driver side = 17104288 ACR 3075 GM, Pass side = 17104288 ACR 2275 GM

    Fuel pump is E2000 pump, and we have 30psi on supply and 0psi on return, and when return pinched off, supply shoots upward...
    I understand your worries about the flow capabilities of the this pump, and this issue has been debated over and over. I have first hand experience with this pump running a stroked 320hp Jeep 4.8L motor with 180lbs worth of injectors to feed at 45 psi, as well as a cammed big tune 6.0L LQ9 with 430hp, and never missed a beat, dyno proven with WB02. Either way, two things are confirmed:

    1) IF e2000 pump is not big enough, then you confirmed that truck runs better off idle, rpms and load increased, and the fuel pump cant supply enough fuel, leaning out the engine allowing it to run much better. Confirming that it is TOO RICH at idle and part throttle.

    2)We arent getting any signs of going too lean at upper RPM high load condtions.

    I am wary of that pump supplying this motor, however my more important concern is the engine running TOO Rich at idle, fouling plugs, and stalling when dropped into gear, unless idle speed is set at 1700, so that idle remains above 900 rpm when shifted into gear. Get past these issues and ill start worrying of fuel starvation on high end.

    What pump do you recommend then?

    Ill get you some timing numbers shortly. Base timing is set at 4 degrees, what RPM would you like to know the timing at? Normal idle of 800-900, or high idle of 1700?

    I have logically ruled out the cam, and or torque converter being the problem. Before the started the fuel Injection swap, truck ran great on flat ground. Idle was set at 700, and didnt stall when dropped into gear. Vacuum at idle then was over 18" just as it high now with Idle speed increased. I would love to have idle back at that RPM, however now with Fuel Injection, truck will stall at that RPM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian617 View Post
    Which pin in the DLC connector is your serial data wire in? E or M?



    Gotya, pulled it open again on the serial cable, pulling ALDL data from pin E. Pretty sure that is one problem, I need to be getting data from pin M, with the 8192 baud, newer ECM?

    Can pin M and E be wired together, so that the cable will work with either?>

  6. #21
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    interface2.gif

    This is how the serial cable is wired. Instead the wire that goes to Pin E needs to go to pin M ?> Can E and M be wired together or do i need to use the two transistor method below?

    cablewires.gif

  7. #22
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    Reset idle to 850, and re adjusted tps so it's back at .58v at idle all with iac closed.

    Reset iac by running engine for 5 secs, off for 10 and then back on. Truck will hardly even stay running long enough to check timing. Timing at 20 degrees or so. About 1/4 advanced from end of scale. Last digit on scale is 16, plus 1/8" after plus the following 1/4".

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5cottymac View Post

    Can pin M and E be wired together, so that the cable will work with either?>
    Just pull the wire out of ALDL socket and put it in proper location.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  9. #24
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    Disagree on the pump. I put down 360 rwhp with my moded TPI and sprayed a 125 hp shot of nitrous and the fuel pressure never budged from 50 psi.

  10. #25
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    Since they are designed to run a much higher pressure then what everyone uses them for in TBI? That may be the case... but at 13-15 PSI they just don't supply enough fuel to keep up with more then a stock engine.

    He's at 30 PSI for the newer BB TBI injectors... so it's a toss up, but I would watch pressure at WOT...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Just pull the wire out of ALDL socket and put it in proper location.
    No change, still no data stream

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Since they are designed to run a much higher pressure then what everyone uses them for in TBI? That may be the case... but at 13-15 PSI they just don't supply enough fuel to keep up with more then a stock engine.

    He's at 30 PSI for the newer BB TBI injectors... so it's a toss up, but I would watch pressure at WOT...

    I'm too rich not only at idle, but throughout rpm range. My experience with working several different engines both on and off the dyno tells me this. The numbers I am getting are backing up my theory. The fouled plugs at idle also confirm this. The only way to improve the running quality is to open throttle blade so that idle is at 1700 rpm, reset tps to have .57-.59v at that throttle angle. This is leaning the motor out, making it run better on the high end, confirming the rich condition. I've got some video of the O2 sensor voltage i'll post when i figure out how to upload it. Dont know if i can host it here, or have to upload it to youtube and link it here.

    Fuel Pressure never drops below 29psi and only does that for breif instances when trying to hold engine back with brakes in 2nd gear at WOT, and returns to 30psi within milliseconds. Only enough to see gauge flicker.

    The only way to get this to idle somewhat smooth is to disconnect the Timing bypass tan wire and then the truck idles smooth as with Carb, and doesn't stall when shift in gear, but according to o2 sensor is still rich.

  13. #28
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    videos added shortly

    Here is an update with data from back probing the sensors:
    Checked Map Sensor wiring, we have 5V accross two outside terminals with Key On
    we have 4.9 volts on Map sensor signal wire with key on engine off.
    we have 1.5-1.7 volts on map sensor signal wire engine idling.

    Checked TPS wiring, 5V accross two outside terminals with key on,
    .58 volts at closed throttle on signal wire
    4.06 volts at wide open throttle on signal wire

    Checked o2 sensor voltage, have .635 volts across purple and tan wires with sensor unplugged. key on, engine off
    we have varying voltage that creeps up to .9 volts at idle, frequency of variation fairly low compare to 2k rpm reading
    at 2000 rpm in park, O2 sensor voltage varies greatly but sweeps back and forth from .1 volts to .8-.9 volts but spends more time at higher voltage

    with timing bypass wire unplugged, idle smooths out not stumbling and O2 sensor voltage stays hovering .78-.98 volts, doesnt stall when shifted into gear, and shows loop mode change by showing o2 voltage changing on higher requence between .2v and .8v

    (video 1)

    with timing bypass plugged back in, battery disconnected to clear codes, idle erratic and stalls easily. at first startup o2 voltage hovers between .76 volts and .79 volts, then stalling

    (video 2)

    re-cranked engine, and inital o2 voltage was .88 volts and hovered and crept up .998 volts and even showed 1.026 volts. when revved up to 2k rpm, voltage change frequency speeds up dramatically and shows fluctuation between .2 volts, and .9 volts, when dropped back to idle, o2 voltage shows over 1.0 volts and hovers between .998 and 1.056 volts.

    (video 3)



    (Video 4) shows cranking the engine, and dropping it in and out of gear and shows the o2 voltage fluctuations while having to finesse throttle to keep engine from stalling
    Last edited by 5cottymac; 02-17-2014 at 06:04 AM.

  14. #29
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    Video 4

  15. #30
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    Finally some data. Borrowed a scanner, and got this data. Couldn't get it to save on usb drive to upload file directly, still no luck with tunerpro.

    I recorded the playback of the truck at idle.


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