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Thread: 454 TBI Swap 78 K30 Trouble with TunerproRT and Winaldl, etc.

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected!
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    454 TBI Swap 78 K30 Trouble with TunerproRT and Winaldl, etc.

    Yes, I'm a newbie, been trolling on here for a while, just now registered. Searched for countless hours using forums and google, and I'm exhausted after trying to fix this truck.

    Here is the background and I'll get on with the problems.

    78 K30 Frame and Running gear, 454/TH400/205
    88 S10 Cab,

    My dad bought the truck a year a go to wheel while we dovetail, bob, shorten, and turn his 84 suburban on 1-tons into an 84 Avalanche. When we bought the truck it had a street avenger carb that someone had attempted to convert into a truck avenger. Truck ran good on flat ground, but sucked in the hills with fuel spilling out of vent tube into the venture. Truck would run rich on full throttle and very lean on part throttle. Ditched the carb, and bought parts to swap to fuel injection.

    Howell Harness for 95 C3500HD 7.4L, and Prom to remove VSS and EGR functions
    95 ECM, 16197427, BHMH Bin
    95 GM OEM 7.4L Throttle Body

    We installed the harness and all sensors. ( IAC, MAP, Heated O2, TPS, CTS). Running a factory style GM HEI....

    Bottom line is, the truck runs super rich, and Howell has not been very helpful.

    Using a Volt meter, as well as a borrowed OBD1 Scanner, we have checked all the sensors and everything is working correctly. Vacuum is steady at idle at 18.5-19". Idles choppy at 750-900 rpms. Small cam in 454, not too much overlap, considering idle vacuum. No other mechanical problems or vacuum leaks. Checked and rechecked all the typical easy fixes, and checked for leaks using propane, and found nothing.

    The Heated O2 Sensor is in the Pass side header, just downstream of the collector, and measures around .89V at idle, pointing out the Rich Condition.
    The Map Sensor voltage is between 1.5-1.8V at idle, again 18.5-19".
    The Tps sensor was reading 1-2% at idle,
    The IAC works and could been seen stepping in/out on the borrowed scanner.
    The Base ignition timing is set at 12 degrees advanced with the connect closed (jumping out terminals)
    The CTS is reading 298 ohms at 190 degrees, and 617 ohms at 150 degrees. Whether the engine is cold or warm, no change in AFR.

    Fuel Pressure is 30psi, and the regulator works. From Howell -> 1995 HD 7.4 models used a higher 30psi fuel pressure to get needed flow from injectors. At first startup we had 15psi tbi pump and it definitely ran worse. Swapped to e2000 pump. Confirmed Regulator is working by pinching off return line and pressure runs up quickly. All new fuel lines so I doubt a blocked return line with the confirmed regulator operation.

    As you crank up the truck the O2 sensor voltage starts at .45 volts and just creeps upward to .89-.9 the longer it runs. The exhaust will burn your eyes and is obviously rich, as well as plug fouling doesn't take too long. Tried 3 different heat range plugs with no effect.

    Once engine is warm, when you drop it in gear, truck will stumble and stalls 50% of the time.

    Replaced O2 sensor, TPS, MAP, and CTS and makes no difference. Only difference is truck runs better with the O2 sensor unplugged.

    This brings me to building an ALDL cable per instructions on several forums. Can run it on either direct serial port or Serial to usb converter. Verified cable operation by plugging it in to 89 4.3L s10 blazer, and had all functions of WINALDL and Freescan. I have downloaded tunerproRT, Winaldl, and Freescan and nothing will communicate with the 95 ECM. The goal is to further diagnose the terrible rich condition by using TunerproRT as a glorified scan tool, and decide how to fix the truck, and get it to run better.

    I downloaded the BMHM bin file, as well as the $0D Mask, and the $31 mask from this site.
    Pretty sure I have done necessary steps with TunerPRORT but not positive because I have no communication with 95 ECM.

    Also, when I try to open bmhm bin file, tunerprort says unable to open.

    First off, not sure If I am doing correct things in the correct order with TunerproRT, and not sure if I installed the BIN file and Mask correctly. I'm not fluent with TunerproRT yet, but tested the ALDL cable using WINaldl on the 89 4.3, to rule out that it is a cable problem.

    Any Ideas on why it is running rich? and Any advice appreciated on how to use TunerproRT with the masks for my ECM.

    Thanks,
    Scott.

  2. #2
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    If your getting a steady voltage reading from the O2 sensor then it's in Open Loop, no O2 sensor feedback to correct fueling. Will it go Closed Loop and see O2 sensor fluctuate when revved up? This would then do some fueling correction. If the fuel pressure is correct as stated then it's rich because of the tune. These 7.4L do like richer then normal at idle so it may be an Open Loop Idle bin? The narrow band is a good indicator but no where near as accurate when outside a very small range at .451v. Without a CAT everything smells rich to the human AFR meter we call a nose... Although fouling plugs is a bad sign and your right, to rich... How's it run other then that? Never mind do the next step first...

    Set timing to 4 degrees advance with bypass wire disconnected. Not sure what you did but it is not correct way to set timing?

    For the idle, what was IAC counts when warmed up after being driven? Should be under 30. For now you could turn throttle blade stop screw in 1/4 to 1/2 turn to let in more air to mix with fuel. This usually is a big help for idle quality.

    You gave two different BCC? So I'm guessing at BMHM being correct as it is for a 95 7.4L engine. This is Maask ID $31 so you'll need that XDF and ADX file or you will not get correct communications for data in TunerPro RT.

    This tutorial helps guys catch up to speed with TuenrPro RT.
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...-a-must-read!-)

    Since your cable is working the above instructions as well as this link below should get TunerPRo RT dialed in with your cable:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-TunerPro-RT

    Then record the data, save it and can post it here so we can see what is going on!

    HTH!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  3. #3
    Fuel Injected!
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    We set timing with the EST disconnected (Tan wire) initially at 4 degrees, and then disconnected battery per howell instructions. To get the truck driveable we set timing at 6,8,10, then 12 degrees advanced using the same methods in stages to track progress. The O2 sensor starts at .3 V and headed to just below .9v while running, idle and revved up. The fuel smoke coming from the exhaust was a better hint than my nose...that and fouled plugs saturated with fuel. We do have a nice conical spray pattern with injectors that are opening like normal. Im current using the $31 XDF, and $31 adx, and $31 ads file in Tunerpro. Ive also tried switching to $0E xdf and adx, and the $0D xdf and adx. I'm not positive that it ever leaves open loop. We messed around with the Iac and the throttle screw with howells advice and calibrating adjustments to ECM but no really effects were ever made. It still runs very rich driving it. I wish I were as rich as this truck...

    I'm going off of that same tutorial to get going.

    Pics are of ECM, and screen shots of all im getting with tuner pro.

    Thanks Again, I appreciate it..

    2a.jpg1a.jpg3a.jpg

  4. #4
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    What does CEL do when Key On engine off?

    Look at top of injectors and get the numbers off them?

    I've opened the BMHM bin file and in hex code it is $31. So use only those files.

    Connection to TunerPro RT needs correct ADX file, cable installed on USB port, always use same USB port, look under Device manager in PC and see what Com port is assigned, go in TunerPro and make sure it is same Com port. Check cable connection with cable plugged into PC and not vehicle.

    Something is wrong! duh, right? Adding that much timing to cover up an issue is on the dangerous side.

    The BMHM chip is for a 4L80E transmission. So I hope Howell turned off more then VSS and EGR... even then I've done one of these type PCM without VSS and it was so much work to tune in person I'd never do it again! When you had Scan tool what error codes were set? Right now if injectors are correct numbers and CEL comes on, blinks and stays on till engine is started then goes off when engine is started? If not, or blinks when engine is started it's in Limp Home Mode, running that rich is what happens in LHM...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  5. #5
    Fuel Injected! 1BadAction's Avatar
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    You have an XDF selected now? In that screen shot there is none selected. The timing needs to be set at 4 degrees and tuned from there if it is stock style ECM controlled. When everything is setup right, the tune will fall right in line.

    Sounds like the injector flow rates are all screwed up VS the injectors that you are running. If you have the earlier BBC injectors in it, then you will be super rich just as you describe. Can you see any part numbers on them?

    Edit: Looks like I was ninja'd by Mark :D
    Last edited by 1BadAction; 01-26-2014 at 02:32 AM.
    94 Blazer, Turbo'd 350 TBI - DD
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  6. #6
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I also noticed that you cursor is pointing to Initialise Emulation Hardware? You don't have emulation? To connect you need to click on the Double Arrows, "Aquire Data (Connect disconnect) to get data...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  7. #7
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    I lost the paper i had written the injector #'s on, but i had previously looked up the color and verified the # to be the 94-95 7.4, lower flow rated, but higher pressure ones.

    Every time I go through the process to select the xdf, it still shows at top no XDF selected. I follow the steps outlined in your tutorial I printed. The cursor over the initialize emulation is just a fluke. I was clicking the double arrow and all that changed was at the bottom: DA Not Connected to DA Connecting. I changed the com port in the tuner pro and did the test and it recognizes the cord.

  8. #8
    Fuel Injected!
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    What I'm doing, according to the tutorial:

    Here's what your need to download, read through then below more instructions how to put them in TunerPro.

    First your bin/chip/ASDU.bin

    Then you need the mask (xdf) to read the bin in English, not hex, $42-1227747-V3.xdf

    Then you need the file for data/scanner (adx) file for the bin/chip/ECM which is the $42-1227747-V3.adx

    The data logged is saved in a file with .xdl at end and can be named anything... you do not need this but it is in the thread above so you can see what a data log looks like and play it back to see how your engine is doing and where changes need to be made. It is file named 11-27-11-3.xdl
    With TunerPro downloaded and installed open it. Then...

    1. CHIP: .bin extension. TunerPro, File, Open Bin. Choose your bin you downloaded and saved. Now your bin is loaded in TunerPro.
    My file saved in Bins folder: BMHM.bin

    2. MASK: .xdf file extension. TunerPro still open, XDF, select your xdf you downloaded and saved, now your mask is loaded in TunerPro. You can now make changes to your chip/bin file.
    My file: Saved in Bin definitions folder: A219 TP5 v250 $31.xdf

    3. SCANNER/Data Logger: .adx file extension. TunerPro still open, Acquisition, Load Definition file you downloaded and saved . Now your acquisition file is loaded in TunerPro. You can now record data from car. Or play back a data log if you do next step.
    MY file: A219 TP5 v250 $31.adx

    4. DATA LOG: .xdl file extension. TunerPro still open, Acquisition, Load Log file.

  9. #9
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Sounds like you have all correct files. Except forget step 4, that is if you want to look at your already recorded data log. You do not need the XDF file to data log. But why won't it load in TunerPro?

    In title bar, XDF then drop down, Select XDF, click on your XDF, Open and it should be there.

    Data is what we want right now so: SCANNER/Data Logger: .adx file extension. TunerPro still open, Acquisition, Load Definition file you downloaded and saved . Now your acquisition file is loaded in TunerPro. You can now record data from car. Hook up cable to vehicle, start and run engine, click double arrows or Acquisition, Start/Stop Data Scan, when you see data Acquisition, Record!

    You never said what your CEL is doing. If it's in LHM you may not get data as something is catastrophically wrong!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected!
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    So I received new, not homebuilt aldl to usb cable, with driver software and installed everything. Cable and driver are installed as com5. After searching, I discovered the thread about that driver version to use and I am now using the .14 driver for the cable. However when I get tunerprort set up with bin file, xdf, and ADX, when I go to preferences and configure for the cable on com5, every time I check cable it gives me same message as cable not found tested at 8192 baud.

    Capture1.JPG
    Capture2.JPG
    Capture3.JPG
    Capture4.JPG

    Thanks for the help guys,

    Eagle Mark I will have more answers about the CEL when I get the truck out from the snow and warmed up. Trying to resolve this cable issue before I head out and try to knock out this one bird with an RPG....

    again, thanks for the help.






    Also, Cant figure out why I unplug the ALDL USB cable, and plug it in to any other port and it always comes up COM5, is this because the driver always recognized the cable as COM5?

    As well, I used HyperTerminal program and selected COM 5 with 9600 Baud, and no signals showing on COM5 when I turn key on.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by 5cottymac; 02-02-2014 at 01:03 AM. Reason: wrong screen capture

  11. #11
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    The cable test is done with cable hooked to PC and not vehicle, it will fail if hooked to vehicle.

    Wondering on the cable, who made it? Red Devil River was the one who found big issues with new FTDI chips and drivers and he had 2.8.24.0 as driver. Just looked at my in car tuning laptop and still at 2.08.14 driver. This is the only one that goes into vehicles any more... All my cables and devices are years old though. The driver issues started popping up with newer FDTI chips.

    Also the driver needs to be same in Com Port and USB Serial Converter!

    Then once I did get a brand new ALDLCables.com cable that was faulty? There is always a possibility that a brand new cable like any other brand new part can be faulty?

    I've been told it does not matter what USB port you plug into once a cable is installed... but I've found to many times that the cable needs to be used with same USB port or it fails or needs to be reinstalled? I forget but all my laptops use USB port on left side or if 2, left side rear as the cable points to dashboard when on the pass seat. I never change USB ports anymore!

    I also do not change any defaults on Com port settings.

    You really seem to be doing everything properly! I'd restart computer with nothing plugged into any USB ports, plug in cable to original USB port it was installed on, check Device manager for Com Port number, open TunerPro and there should only be one Com port available. If more then one port is shown in TP? Choose the one in {Com x} IIRC.

    I'm out of tips? Hope that helps?

    I've asked Mark M at TunerPRo why installing cables is such and issue when there's never issues with other Data Logging programs and his answer was... "Other programs only take pass through cables but TunerPro accepts pass through cables and devices like Autoprom etc...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  12. #12
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Once you get the cable and TP happy... we still have a major malfuntion which is probably why it's running so poorly! Also the reason I asked what CEL is doing. You said:

    This brings me to building an ALDL cable per instructions on several forums. Can run it on either direct serial port or Serial to usb converter. Verified cable operation by plugging it in to 89 4.3L s10 blazer, and had all functions of WINALDL and Freescan. I have downloaded tunerproRT, Winaldl, and Freescan and nothing will communicate with the 95 ECM. The goal is to further diagnose the terrible rich condition by using TunerproRT as a glorified scan tool, and decide how to fix the truck, and get it to run better.
    If you can get data with other vehicle and same laptop and cable, but not this vehicle? You may not have data? Could be a wiring issue? Although Howell makes good stuff they are still human, so are you. So need to check serial data wire from ALDL port to PCM, check the serial wire is in correct location on ALDL port, check ground on ALDL port etc... if a couple wires got swapped at ALDL port... well obviously you won't get data!

    Also what does Howell do for the chip nowadays? Do they use a G1 adapter? If so is it installed correctly? Look at this thread with pictures

    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...er-form-Moates

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  13. #13
    Fuel Injected!
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    The Check Engine Light operates as follows

    Key off position: obviously light off
    Key run position: light flashes once and then remains on
    key start, then to run: light remains on, until engine fires and runs, light goes off and remains off

    Only DTC shown is 1-2 : verifying operation of "Short" in ALDL cable asking for DTC display

    I have two laptops and two cables,

    Laptop A: Dell with Tunerpro RT with all same .bin, .adx, and .xdf Has serial port and usb port. Loaded with all same drivers as Laptop B
    Laptop B: HP with usb only ports, loaded with tunerprort, same bin,adx, and xdf files. same drivers as laptop A

    Cable 1: Homeade cable with switch to allow direct "short" to retrieve DTC codes, 3.9K ohm resistor can be switched on, 10k ohm resistor can be switched on. This cable goes direct ALDL to Serial.

    Cable 2: ALDL to USB cable from www.aldlcable.com Has moveable bar to change from open to 10k ohms, to direct short.


    To explain in better detail.

    I hooked Laptop A and cable 1 to 89 4.3 s10 blazer, and view ALDL information using FreeScan program. I was able to view dashboard as well as sensor data. Switched to direct "short" condition, and viewed DTC code for TPS voltage low, which matched sensor data and flags. This confirmed that the cable we had built was working correctly with 89 4.3 S10 blazer.

    I then hooked laptop A and cable 1 to 78 K30 454, and using Freescan, and nothing happened. This is when i downloaded and installed TPRT on both laptops, and installed all corresponding bin files, adx files, and xdf files, all for $31 mask. I also ordered the cable 2 at this point.

    Then I hooked cable 1 to laptop B using usb to serial adapter and TPRT failed to recognize cable, with correct drivers and COM port settings.

    Next I hooked cable 2, to laptop B direct to usb, changed COM settings and TPRT failed to recognize cable.

    Next I hooked cable 1 to Laptop A, direct to serial port, TUNERPRORT recognized the cable!!!. Next i hooked to 78 K30 7.4 Still using $31 mask files, still failed to connect to ECM. I then verified that cable 1 is still working with ECM, by switching to direct "short" to display DTC, and i get a code 1-2, verify operation. I then tried Freescan, Winaldl and tunerprort again, with no info from ECM.

    My thoughts were then, maybe the ALDL plug was wired incorrectly from howell: But-> we had our resident tune up guy bring himself and an OBD1 scanner, early on trying to make sure all sensors were working correctly and he could view all data, and see that all sensors were working correctly. The fact that he could, and I witnessed the data on his screen, makes me think the Chip Howell did and the aldl plug they wired are both correct. He had the truck for over a month going over everything and could find nothing wrong with any sensor, or any other hardware or wiring issue.

    So where we are now:

    Laptop A, with cable 1, is the only way TPRT will recognize any cable, but still no data stream from ECM on 78 k30 7.4. When I click the double arrow button to connect to ECM, for 1.5 seconds, it says DA Connecting: then goes back to DA not connected.


    Capture1.jpg

    P.s. IIRC it is switching between open and closed loop, this info from when tune up guy had his professional scanner plugged in.

    Base Timing with tan wire disconnected is set at 4 degrees. Note: when i unplugged that connector to check timing, the idle definitely got much smoother, and truck ran better. Then disconnect battery, reconnected the tan wire connector(for setting timing) and truck is back idling terrible.
    Last edited by 5cottymac; 02-15-2014 at 09:50 PM.

  14. #14
    Fuel Injected!
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    With base timing at 4 degrees instead of the 12 degrees before, the truck runs moderately better through the rpm range and varying loads.

    however, the terrible idle quality is worse than before, and will immediately stall when dropped into gear once warm, and stall if you do not keep some throttle opening while driving. Truck is definitely surging at idle.

    From what Ive read it seems like if I adjust the idle screw, i need to get the IAC counts in a certain range, but I can't view the counts bc i'm not getting any aldl data. Catch 22. Thinking that the idle blade position and IAC counts are hopefully causing the terrible idle issue, stalling on deceleration, stalling when dropped in gear problem that I was band-aiding by advancing the timing more than normal before, inadvertaintly increasing idle speed.
    Last edited by 5cottymac; 02-15-2014 at 10:56 PM.

  15. #15
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    So been trying to fool this thing all day with no notable progress.

    I warmed up engine to operating temp and made sure tstat was open at 200 degrees. I revved and held engine at 2k RPM to ensure IAC was completely closed, and unplugged IAC, and shut motor down. Next I cranked engine back up with IAC disconnected and shifted into gear while hold brake, and set minimum idle speed before stalling at 950 rpm. Anything below that and the engine is erratic and completely stalls. I shut everything down, and reconnected IAC.
    Next, i back probed the TPS, and adjusted it so the voltage is back at .59v so that the ecm thinks we are back zero throttle opening.

    Took the truck out, and now idle in park is around 1700 rpm, and when you drop it in gear, idle speed drops to 950 and only now stalls 50% of the time. Drove around, no noticeable difference other than wanting to push through the brakes almost all the time, and no longer stalling on deceleration.

    Put the truck in low range, and it still stalls everytime its placed in gear. If i finesse the throttle while putting it in gear it will stay running, but pushes through the brakes like they are not even there.

    1) To me, its dumb to have it idle so high if it still is going to stall when dropped in gear,
    2) My first thought is that the cam has too much duration & overlap, and this is why its stalling at anything below 950 rpm. However, idle vacuum was 18.5-19.5 inches at 950, more vacuum than my bone stock 97 7.4L.
    3) Torque converter stall speed is just two low for the cam specs.
    4) Im almost positive having the throttle opened this far at 1700 rpm idle is confusing the ECM seeing different MAP voltages and TPS voltages...
    5) still no luck scanning or datalogging

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