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Thread: Another TPI Project..

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected!
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    Another TPI Project..

    While I am gathering bits for my FIRST Fuel Injection install on my 69' Vette, I have decided to embark on another adventure to get my feet wet.
    I have assembled all the bits to install a factory GM TPI intake onto my ZZ3 crate motor that is situated in my 85' Suburban 4x4.
    I've finally had enough with trying to get the Q-Jets to work properly so I figure this will be the best bang for my buck and really help in the torque and fuel mileage departments.

    I've gone ahead and purchased a Burn2 from Moates and the TunerPro RT software so I can tweak my own BIN files but I haven't been able to find any documentation for my somewhat rudimentary questions. I'm hoping someone out here can help.
    Here is my config:
    ZZ3 crate motor (no mods), factory exhaust manifolds with full dual exhaust, Suburban 4x4, A/C, 700R4, 3.42 axles.
    From an engine control perspective, I have a complete 88' F-body TPI (I'll remove the 9th injector), 1227165 ECM and plan on using the $6E BIN with MAF and the stock 43.5 PSI fuel pressure.
    I am keeping the charcoal canister but removing the AIR pump, EGR and VATs.
    This is my utility vehicle used to haul supplies and occasionally a 20' jet boat. Bullet-Proof reliability and decent fuel economy are my goals.

    Here are my questions:
    Looking at an existing ARAP BIN file (since the ZZ3 is essentially a tweaked L98 with the same aluminum heads, I figured this is a good start), I don't see any flags for disabling the EGR (just the diagnostics?) or the AIR pump.
    I guess a more general question is how do I disable functions that don't specifically have an 'On-Off' setting (IE Cooling Fans, HVAC control, EGR etc)? Since I will have a S.E.S. lamp, I want to prevent throwing nuisance codes for unused devices.
    Is there some sort of 'Default Value' I enter to render these devices useless or do I just simply leave them disconnected from the ECM?

    I will be using VSS but I don't see any specific setting that corresponds to axle ratios- Is there such an entry on the 165 ECM?
    I see many values that are based on vehicle speed but without specifying the axle ratio, these values will be inaccurate?
    Also, since this truck in an 85, I can use the 2K optical VSS signal from the speedometer head that the cruise control uses- But my question is can I run BOTH the cruise control AND the ECM with this single VSS source (essentially just splitting the 2K signal to go to both devices)?

    From an injector perspective, I am thinking the 22# stock 5.7 injectors should be more than adequate for this application?
    The ZZ3 is rated at 335 HP with a 4 bbl and headers but my truck is running the factory (restrictive) exhaust manifolds and I will realistically NEVER run this thing above 4500 RPM so my HP range will be considerably less than the rated 335. Seems the 22# injectors should be fine-
    Thoughts/comments?

    I apologize for all the questions but I have not been able to find these answers surfing on-line.
    If there is a repository for 165 specific information, I'd appreciate if someone can provide the link.
    Thank you for your time!
    Elm

  2. #2
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Is there a possibility you would consider $8D, 1990 ~ 1992 Camaro 1227730 ECM? The hacks, tutorials, and other tuning related information is more abundant for $8D!

    The attached $6E .bin file has most of the mods you need, but is totally wrong for your engine. Use the attached .bin for comparison only!

    dave w
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by dave w; 01-19-2014 at 04:53 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    Is there a possibility you would consider $8D, 1990 ~ 1992 Camaro 1227730 ECM? The hacks, tutorials, and other tuning related information is more abundant for $8D!

    The attached $6E .bin file has most of the mods you need, but is totally wrong for your engine. Use the attached .bin for comparison only!

    dave w
    Dave,
    Thank you again for your time-
    The 90-92 are Speed Density and I would prefer to keep the MAF.
    It would also require a different ECM and harness or at least the harness connections.
    I have everything for the 165 (harness, sensors etc) so I would prefer to stick with the parts I have on-hand if at all possible.

    Is what I'm trying to accomplish that far from stock that the 165 won't be able to accommodate?
    Other than disabling the bits I'm not using, I don't think the tun itself should really be that much different than a stock L98 Vette motor?

    I took a look at the modified BIN you provided above (thank you) but I am hard pressed to tell how this file is much different than the stock ARAP BIN when I compare them on TunerPro RT? Some of the values are indeed different but I'm not sure this answers my questions from above?
    I guess I'm still not making the connection on how this file is accommodating for my application requirements.
    Sorry if I'm slow to grasp some of these concepts but I am willing to learn!
    Thank you,
    Elm

  4. #4
    Fuel Injected! EDZIP's Avatar
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    Don't know how far along you are with the wiring...but if you want a "really (really) good reference manual" pick up the one F-Bodies, Inc sells. Couldn't have made my TPI harnesses without it. They discuss every pin in both MAF and SD systems, what it does and whether it needs to be disabled in the ecm or just not connected.

    There is one on eBay right now:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...m=370221453669


    If you get into a bind for TPI parts give me a shout..I target speed density stuff...but have MAF components in the mix.

    Ed

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDZIP View Post
    Don't know how far along you are with the wiring...but if you want a "really (really) good reference manual" pick up the one F-Bodies, Inc sells. Couldn't have made my TPI harnesses without it. They discuss every pin in both MAF and SD systems, what it does and whether it needs to be disabled in the ecm or just not connected.

    There is one on eBay right now:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...m=370221453669


    If you get into a bind for TPI parts give me a shout..I target speed density stuff...but have MAF components in the mix.

    Ed
    Ed,
    Thank you for the tip- I bought the book!
    I've started working on the harness but I've only removed bits that I was 100% sure I didn't need but there are a lot of others that are questionable.
    I believe I have pretty much all I need for this conversion but I'll let you know if I'm missing anything.
    Thanks!
    Elm

  6. #6
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    The attached screen shot are a short tutorial on using the compare / difference tool. The .bin I post is helpful for learning the types of changes your requesting for your .bin file. There are dozens of changes between the stock .bin and modified .bin file I posted, which is easy to see with the difference tool.

    Enjoy,
    dave w
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    The attached screen shot are a short tutorial on using the compare / difference tool. The .bin I post is helpful for learning the types of changes your requesting for your .bin file. There are dozens of changes between the stock .bin and modified .bin file I posted, which is easy to see with the difference tool.

    Enjoy,
    dave w
    Dave,
    This is awesome! Exactly what I was looking for!
    I guess I need to spend some more time poking around this tool.
    So looking at a compare of the file you provided vs a stock ARAP file, it appears that to disable certain things that don't actually have a flag, you need to either make the setting high or low, depending on the data element / component?

    I still don't see any reference to axle ratio so do I assume the actual ratio is somewhat irrelevant with this ECM?
    Looks like I should be able to tweak this to get my ZZ3 running just fine.
    Thank you again!
    Elm

  8. #8
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    To answer your VSS question, I used the stock opitcal vss on my 83 g20 for tbi and tpi for years by simply splicing into the wiring at the cruise control brain box! For cruise I robbed the external mounted unit from a 2.8 TBI s10 and it hooked up to the TPI beautifully. I loved how it reacted to the increase speed button. Just hold it and after about 2 seconds it would kick the pedal to the floor and GO!

    The early bosch maf setups suck badly, I would high recomeend a 90-92 7730 and start with Super AUJP4. Its what I did with my G20 when I ran the 7730. It would probably handle your setup fine, but the mafs are restrictive and failure prone. Not to mention the Speed Density is just easier to work with when it comes to tuning.

    I tried the stock bosch injectors but quickly replaced them with cleaned and flow matched LT1 units. Had to grind down the stands the fuel rail bolts to slightly but it was worth the time it took. The LT1 injectors really helped with atomization, idle quality, and fuel mileage.
    Last edited by Fast355; 01-19-2014 at 08:09 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    To answer your VSS question, I used the stock opitcal vss on my 83 g20 for tbi and tpi for years by simply splicing into the wiring at the cruise control brain box! For cruise I robbed the external mounted unit from a 2.8 TBI s10 and it hooked up to the TPI beautifully. I loved how it reacted to the increase speed button. Just hold it and after about 2 seconds it would kick the pedal to the floor and GO!

    The early bosch maf setups suck badly, I would high recomeend a 90-92 7730 and start with Super AUJP4. Its what I did with my G20 when I ran the 7730. It would probably handle your setup fine, but the mafs are restrictive and failure prone. Not to mention the Speed Density is just easier to work with when it comes to tuning.

    I tried the stock bosch injectors but quickly replaced them with cleaned and flow matched LT1 units. Had to grind down the stands the fuel rail bolts to slightly but it was worth the time it took. The LT1 injectors really helped with atomization, idle quality, and fuel mileage.
    Thanks for the info!
    Good deal on the VSS- That makes this install even easier yet.
    Since I won't be spinning this motor over 4500, I don't think the MAF restriction will be an issue.
    I see you're out of Euless (or as we called it 'Useless')- I lived there for about 5 years back in the late 80's.
    Things have really changed out there since then..
    Thanks again!
    Elm

  10. #10
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Flags only disable the SES / Check Engine Light. Flags will Not disable the function. To actually disable a function / parameter, like EGR, the Manifold Air Temperature (MAT) needs to be set to a value that will disable the function. In the case of the EGR, MAT temperatures below (less than) 296.15 F will keep the EGR from working.

    In general, axle ratios mostly affect timing tables and fuel tables.

    dave w

  11. #11
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    In general, axle ratios mostly affect timing tables and fuel tables.

    dave w
    Right, but he's thinking there's a setting in these old ECM for it like the new OBDII units.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Right, but he's thinking there's a setting in these old ECM for it like the new OBDII units.
    Exactly!
    I've been looking at the 12200411 PCMs and I am trying to correlate the parameters from that to the 1227165, which probably isn't the best thing to do.
    Elm

  13. #13
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    is there any real reason you want to keep MAF.our aussie $12p map code runs on 1227165 ecu and is fully defined in the xdf and adx.theres even a base tune for TPI chev that would have you driving in minutes LOL.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcowizzid View Post
    is there any real reason you want to keep MAF.our aussie $12p map code runs on 1227165 ecu and is fully defined in the xdf and adx.theres even a base tune for TPI chev that would have you driving in minutes LOL.
    I prefer using MAF and I have all the components to run it so I'd rather stay with what I have than re-wiring for MAP.
    I realize MAP is probably the fastest and easiest method but I usually don't follow what most folks do just because I like to be difficult.. lol
    My long term goal is to upgrade to the 12200411 PCM anyway, which has both MAF and MAP so I might as well start with the MAF now so I can get some exposure to how it gets set-up.

    Elm

  15. #15
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    The 12200411 is a very good option. I designed and built my own "bolt on" harmonic balancer mounted trigger wheel. I admit, I have access to tools and have skills that made this an affordable option for me.

    dave w




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