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Thread: WTB: GMPP TBI / Vortec Intake Manifold

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    WTB: GMPP TBI / Vortec Intake Manifold

    I want to buy a GMPP TBI to Vortec intake.

    Like this:
    http://paceperformance.com/i-6255261...-with-egr.html

    I already missed out on a couple of decent deals on ebay and I am looking to find a good deal on a used one rather than pay the high price for a new one.

    So if you have one you want to sell or know anyone that has one they want to sell, please PM me.

    Thank You
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    This intake only offers mild performance gains over stock. A factory 86-87 aluminum 4bbl quadrajet manifold with adapter can provide greater gains while retaining EGR and factory manifold heating and it bolts right onto the factory heads.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-OE...cfe58e&vxp=mtr
    (Not my part)

  3. #3
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    This intake only offers mild performance gains over stock. A factory 86-87 aluminum 4bbl quadrajet manifold with adapter can provide greater gains while retaining EGR and factory manifold heating and it bolts right onto the factory heads.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-OE...cfe58e&vxp=mtr
    (Not my part)
    I agree, the factory cast Q-Jet aluminum intake is often over looked as an affordable intake option for SBC cast iron heads 1986 and before. Unfortunately, the TBI heads from 1987 ~ 1995 had the center bolt holes angled differently, so the factory cast Q-Jet aluminum intake is not a simple swap to TBI heads without elongating the center mounting holes.

    I think Devin is looking for an intake that will bolt to the 1996 / newer Vortec heads that have eight intake mounting bolts.

    dave w

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    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    That is correct Dave,

    I need a intake for the 1996 and up Vortec heads.

    What I like about the GMPP intake is it allows the water to flow from all 4 corners of the heads allowing the the water from the back of the heads to flow through the intake towards the thermostat. There are some issues with running Vortec heads with the way the water flows through them. GM eliminated the block bypass when the came out with the Vortec heads and that is why the water pumps have 2 bypass ports one for a constant bypass and one for the heater.

    I assume the fact that this intake has the the water passages and egr gas passage cast into it the way that it does is what makes it so expensive. I would imagine the process to cast it is a lot more involved.

    Look at the pic I added you can see all the passages on the underside.
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    Last edited by devind; 11-22-2013 at 07:26 AM. Reason: added pic

  5. #5
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devind View Post
    That is correct Dave,

    I need a intake for the 1996 and up Vortec heads.

    What I like about the GMPP intake is it allows the water to flow from all 4 corners of the heads allowing the the water from the back of the heads to flow through the intake towards the thermostat. There are some issues with running Vortec heads with the way the water flows through them. GM eliminated the block bypass when the came out with the Vortec heads and that is why the water pumps have 2 bypass ports one for a constant bypass and one for the heater.

    I assume the fact that this intake has the the water passages and egr gas passage cast into it the way that it does is what makes it so expensive. I would imagine the process to cast it is a lot more involved.

    Look at the pic I added you can see all the passages on the underside.
    Devin,
    Just wondering if you have given any thought to converting to the 1996 ~ 2000 Vortec MPFI system using the '427 PCM? It could be done in two steps, first upgrade to the '427 PCM, then install the 1996 ~ 2000 Vortec MPFI system. I have experience doing both conversions, and would be willing to share my notes.

    dave w

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    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    Devin,
    Just wondering if you have given any thought to converting to the 1996 ~ 2000 Vortec MPFI system using the '427 PCM? It could be done in two steps, first upgrade to the '427 PCM, then install the 1996 ~ 2000 Vortec MPFI system. I have experience doing both conversions, and would be willing to share my notes.

    dave w
    Have I thought about it? Yes
    Am I intimidated about it? Yes
    Worried about expense? Yes
    Worried about time it would take to start over? Yes
    Concerned about starting over when this close on current setup? Yes
    Concerned about complicating the efi setup? Yes

    With all that said I am still interested in what you have to show me.
    I would really like some kind of TPI or ram setup like used on the Ram Jet engine. But that is definitely is out of the budget I would imagine.

    The set up now makes more than enough power for the Jeep but anything I could do to improve overall drivability would be good. But I would like to keep it simple; I am a big fan of simplicity.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devind View Post
    Have I thought about it? Yes
    Am I intimidated about it? Yes
    Worried about expense? Yes
    Worried about time it would take to start over? Yes
    Concerned about starting over when this close on current setup? Yes
    Concerned about complicating the efi setup? Yes

    With all that said I am still interested in what you have to show me.
    I would really like some kind of TPI or ram setup like used on the Ram Jet engine. But that is definitely is out of the budget I would imagine.

    The set up now makes more than enough power for the Jeep but anything I could do to improve overall drivability would be good. But I would like to keep it simple; I am a big fan of simplicity.
    I figured in you area, used 5.7 Vortec intake systems / parts would be affordable? Seems the Vortec heads were the "In Demand Items" not the intake systems.

    Would it be as simple as a TBI? No
    Would it be as complicated as an 0411 PCM? No
    Would the fuel pressures increase? Yes
    Can you reuse the TBI distributor? Yes
    Would the current belt drive system need modification? Maybe ~ Depends on what is bolted to the current intake manifold.
    Is there any additional wirng? Yes ~ Injector Pod and sensor connectors ends.

    I'll post additional information soon.

    dave w

  8. #8
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    I figured in you area, used 5.7 Vortec intake systems / parts would be affordable? Seems the Vortec heads were the "In Demand Items" not the intake systems.

    Would it be as simple as a TBI? No
    Would it be as complicated as an 0411 PCM? No
    Would the fuel pressures increase? Yes
    Can you reuse the TBI distributor? Yes
    Would the current belt drive system need modification? Maybe ~ Depends on what is bolted to the current intake manifold.
    Is there any additional wirng? Yes ~ Injector Pod and sensor connectors ends.

    I'll post additional information soon.

    dave w
    Dave,
    I have been thinking about this and as much as I appreciate your willingness to help me and share your notes with me. The more I think about it, I am not sure this is the vehicle I want to learn to do a MPFI on. I kind of like the the simplicity of the TBI system being on this vehicle.

    I know there will be a MPFI project in my future and I hope your offer will still stand. However I still might be interested in upgrading to the other ecm. You mentioned this to me before.

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    I lost track of the Vortec needs. The TBI Vortec is still not the best choice. It is a copy of a factory manifold. If you are not forced to use EGR there are plenty of good carby intakes available that would work with adapters.

    Coolant under the manifold is to aid emissions. It is not there for cooling. The bypass in the old block exists to circulate coolant from below the thermostat ensuring warm coolant reaches the 'stat and causes it to open. You can do the same thing by adding a small hole to the 'stat (about 1/8"). If you aren't in an area where it gets really cold this won't cause problems. If it gets below 20 deg the engine might not warm enough. Additionally, you can install small nipples and use 3/8" hose to create a small bypass path to the water pump. What you do not want to do imo is use 1/2" heater hose to create a bypass path. The stock intake has a dual valve 'stat that closes the bypass as it opens the radiator. A traditional 'stat cannot close the bypass path and a 1/2" hose may allow large amounts of coolant to bypass the radiator.

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    I lost track of the Vortec needs.

    The TBI Vortec is still not the best choice. It is a copy of a factory manifold. If you are not forced to use EGR there are plenty of good carby intakes available that would work with adapters.

    Coolant under the manifold is to aid emissions. It is not there for cooling. The bypass in the old block exists to circulate coolant from below the thermostat ensuring warm coolant reaches the 'stat and causes it to open. You can do the same thing by adding a small hole to the 'stat (about 1/8"). If you aren't in an area where it gets really cold this won't cause problems. If it gets below 20 deg the engine might not warm enough. Additionally, you can install small nipples and use 3/8" hose to create a small bypass path to the water pump. What you do not want to do imo is use 1/2" heater hose to create a bypass path. The stock intake has a dual valve 'stat that closes the bypass as it opens the radiator. A traditional 'stat cannot close the bypass path and a 1/2" hose may allow large amounts of coolant to bypass the radiator.
    I have already been running a Weiand Intake with a custom adapter I machined for a while now.

    The first problem I had when I got this setup going a year ago was when I went to break the cam in the engine warmed up and started to overheat right away. After some diagnosing the problem, I came to the realization the water pressure from the water pump was forcing the T-stat closed. At the time I cut the center out of the T-stat and was able to break the cam in.

    Later on I got a high flow T-stat with 3 – 3/16” holes drilled in it and it worked fine except when it is cold out it allows too much water to bypass and it won’t warm up above 150*. So to cure this problem I got a high flow T-stat without the bypass holes and it works good but now the heater core make funny sound when the T-stat opens and closes from the water the bypasses through it.

    So what I am wanting is an intake that will ether flow coolant like the GMPP or has provisions to plumb the water from the back to the front. I was going to drill and tap the intake I have but there really isn’t much material there to do it. However I have found some cheap carb Vortec intakes on ebay that I can plumb this way. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=171073251560

    I am planning on running a standard bypass hose straight from the intake to the water pump. Then I will either add a nipple to the radiator next to the lower outlet or make a tee to go inline in the lower radiator hose so that I can plumb the heater from the intake to heater core, from core to lower radiator hose. I am running a high flow reverse rotation Edelbrock water pump, I wish there was a way to just add another bypass port to it like the big block water pumps have.

    I have done some internet searching about this issue and really wasn’t finding a whole lot of people having this problem than just the other day found some guys on the Tri 5 forum that was having the same issue with their Ram Jet crate motors and this is what many of them did to cure the problem.
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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devind View Post
    I have done some internet searching about this issue and really wasn’t finding a whole lot of people having this problem than just the other day found some guys on the Tri 5 forum that was having the same issue with their Ram Jet crate motors and this is what many of them did to cure the problem.
    The pictured adapter looks very similar to the design I came up with . See pics below. I've made a few improvements since I made these screen shots.

    dave w
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  12. #12
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post
    The pictured adapter looks very similar to the design I came up with . See pics below. I've made a few improvements since I made these screen shots.

    dave w
    Yea, the picture is of the one I made earlier this year.

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    It's amazing that the Edelbrock pump can make enough pressure at the thermostat to keep it closed. I've tried to muscle t-stat's closed before and they generally have a fair amount of pressure. Plus the pump isn't anything more than a splash type pump, like a TBI pump with much greater clearances. But I guess .08 in sq of opening added to the 'stat made a large enough difference. How did you determine pressure was forcing it closed?

    All you need to get the 'stat to open is enough warm coolant to provide a signal. Ever look at the front of an Olds 350 / 455 intake? I'm really surprised none of the manufacturers have built the bypass in using that method and a different coolant outlet and supplying a block off plate if the bypass isn't not needed. Wishful thinking, I guess.

    People get excited about drilling holes and tapping the manifold for a bypass but why not use a thermostat spacer? http://www.behrents.com/c/Cooling-HousingThermo.html


    No, the pump doesn't lend itself to easy drill and tap procedures.

    Do you have a restrictor on the heater hose from the inlet pipe?

  14. #14
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    It's amazing that the Edelbrock pump can make enough pressure at the thermostat to keep it closed. I've tried to muscle t-stat's closed before and they generally have a fair amount of pressure. Plus the pump isn't anything more than a splash type pump, like a TBI pump with much greater clearances. But I guess .08 in sq of opening added to the 'stat made a large enough difference. How did you determine pressure was forcing it closed?

    All you need to get the 'stat to open is enough warm coolant to provide a signal. Ever look at the front of an Olds 350 / 455 intake? I'm really surprised none of the manufacturers have built the bypass in using that method and a different coolant outlet and supplying a block off plate if the bypass isn't not needed. Wishful thinking, I guess.

    People get excited about drilling holes and tapping the manifold for a bypass but why not use a thermostat spacer? http://www.behrents.com/c/Cooling-HousingThermo.html


    No, the pump doesn't lend itself to easy drill and tap procedures.

    Do you have a restrictor on the heater hose from the inlet pipe?

    I don’t know exactly what the deal is but is has something to do with the water flows through the Vortec heads. Since the 1996 and newer Vortec blocks did not have the bypass on the passenger side of the block at the water pump mount, apparently the heads have a little different design as well. Also when you are trying to muscle the T-state you were probably trying to open it. When in the intake the water is actually pushing against the back side trying to close it.

    I ran the same pump with the TBI heads for several years and never had a problem.

    It wasn’t until I rebuilt the motor and went with the Vortec heads that I started having this problem.

    I thought I might have something else going on. It wasn’t until I found the thread on the Tri-5 forum were guys were having the problem with their Ram Jet engines which also run Vortec heads that I knew for sure I was diagnosing the problem correctly. Some of those guys were running standard stock pumps and still having the same issue. Most guys just say they run the T-state with the bypass holes in them and never have a problem. But with EFI I want the water temp to be consistent.

    I’m not sure about the heater hose fittings. They are the same ones that I ran with the TBI heads. I was actually thinking about that the other day when I noticed it making the funny noises. I was trying to remember were the smaller one goes. If I’m correct the smaller restrictor fitting actually goes on at the water pump to create some back pressure and help keep pressure build up in the heater core. Does that sound correct?
    Last edited by devind; 11-22-2013 at 10:24 PM.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    The link to the 1227747 ECM to 16197427 PCM http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...out-Directions!

    The simple easy way is to use a Plug-n-Play adapter. See pic below. R.I.P to the 1227747 that donated it's connector.

    dave w
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