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Thread: what im missing here

  1. #1
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    what im missing here

    ok.. specs first of all

    completly rebuild 4.3 tbi c1500 89 w/700r4

    0.30 over, 9.6:1cr, edelbrock 3714 cam, performer (3713) intake, stock heads, 30deg cut on valves, smoothened ports, stock exht. all sensors and ignition new, msd blaster coil.

    i have modified my stock aksb. bin, egr off, i have used winald to log my blm:s and got new values to VE map, added little spark for mid rpm and adjusted PE and AE values little..

    result... in closed loop, when moving some decent speeds, 30-70mph, i got 14.5-15.3 afr:s on cruise, on light acc afr goes momentarily up o 16-16-5 afr and when adding more tps ill got it richer, 13.5 approx at wot its 12.6-12.9 afr

    its not bad... but... from off idle or low speeds my acceleration is rather poor, rpm:s dont want to go up too quickly, its like having some 10 tons trailer on my tail... acceleration from 40 to 70 is almos twice faster than from 5 to 40 mph, and ill got only some 13.3 13.5 afr @wot...

    but that not all, bigger issue is my idle, when open loop, in park it idles 1150-1230 rpm@ 33-38 map and 15.7 to 16.7 afr.. too lean, little stumbles... dont know if its bad or not but canot get rpm lower... i have adjusted iac steps down (4 steps when warm) and opened the flaps to get better atomization but still no help, winald shows iac value 22 so somethign else opens iac so i wont get rpm:s lower or am i completly wrong?

    when engine is warm(rather warm, cannot get temp above 76C/168F) and been drivig in closed loop stopping in traffic or going in park, after some rpm drop in first few seconds it will run next 10 seconds decent idle... 700-725 rpm @ 14.5 afr and rather fine but soon afr:s goes over 16--> engine starts to stumble, vibrate and nearly dies, rpm( afr and map also) wonders around, rpm from 450 up to 900 rpm.


    im rather new in prom tuning, just trying to learn but now i cannot understant what im doing wrong in the idle and acceleration values.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rytari View Post
    ok.. specs first of all

    completly rebuild 4.3 tbi c1500 89 w/700r4

    0.30 over, 9.6:1cr, edelbrock 3714 cam, performer (3713) intake, stock heads, 30deg cut on valves, smoothened ports, stock exht. all sensors and ignition new, msd blaster coil.

    i have modified my stock aksb. bin, egr off, i have used winald to log my blm:s and got new values to VE map, added little spark for mid rpm and adjusted PE and AE values little..

    result... in closed loop, when moving some decent speeds, 30-70mph, i got 14.5-15.3 afr:s on cruise, on light acc afr goes momentarily up o 16-16-5 afr and when adding more tps ill got it richer, 13.5 approx at wot its 12.6-12.9 afr

    its not bad... but... from off idle or low speeds my acceleration is rather poor, rpm:s dont want to go up too quickly, its like having some 10 tons trailer on my tail... acceleration from 40 to 70 is almos twice faster than from 5 to 40 mph, and ill got only some 13.3 13.5 afr @wot...

    but that not all, bigger issue is my idle, when open loop, in park it idles 1150-1230 rpm@ 33-38 map and 15.7 to 16.7 afr.. too lean, little stumbles... dont know if its bad or not but canot get rpm lower... i have adjusted iac steps down (4 steps when warm) and opened the flaps to get better atomization but still no help, winald shows iac value 22 so somethign else opens iac so i wont get rpm:s lower or am i completly wrong?

    when engine is warm(rather warm, cannot get temp above 76C/168F) and been drivig in closed loop stopping in traffic or going in park, after some rpm drop in first few seconds it will run next 10 seconds decent idle... 700-725 rpm @ 14.5 afr and rather fine but soon afr:s goes over 16--> engine starts to stumble, vibrate and nearly dies, rpm( afr and map also) wonders around, rpm from 450 up to 900 rpm.


    im rather new in prom tuning, just trying to learn but now i cannot understant what im doing wrong in the idle and acceleration values.
    Sounds like a vacuum leak to me and the IAC is one as well.

    This method of setting the minimum idle worked well for me.

    A.) With a warm engine and the Key OFF Jumper A to B on the ALDL connector
    B.) Turn key on and wait 30 seconds
    C.) Unplug IAC and turn off the a/c and all electrical loads.
    D.) Unjumper the connector and start the truck, may take a little throttle to get it to stay running.
    E.) Set the minimum idle about 50-100 rpm below the controlled idle.
    F.) Shut-off engine and reconnect the IAC.

    Have you set the timing correctly by disconnecting the EST connector and setting the base timing to 0?

    I bet ultimately you need some higher flowing 305 injectors with your setup.

    Post up a .BIN file for us to see where you are now. Datalogs would also be helpful.
    Last edited by Fast355; 10-13-2013 at 12:59 PM.

  3. #3
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    which ecm are you using? down load tuner pro an post a data log.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    Sounds like a vacuum leak to me and the IAC is one as well.

    This method of setting the minimum idle worked well for me.

    A.) With a warm engine and the Key OFF Jumper A to B on the ALDL connector
    B.) Turn key on and wait 30 seconds
    C.) Unplug IAC and turn off the a/c and all electrical loads.
    D.) Unjumper the connector and start the truck, may take a little throttle to get it to stay running.
    E.) Set the minimum idle about 50-100 rpm below the controlled idle.
    F.) Shut-off engine and reconnect the IAC.

    Have you set the timing correctly by disconnecting the EST connector and setting the base timing to 0?

    I bet ultimately you need some higher flowing 305 injectors with your setup.

    Post up a .BIN file for us to see where you are now. Datalogs would also be helpful.
    7747 ecm that i use, below bin for you guys... base timing is now 2 and i have change value for it in table also... i have set idle to 700 rpm when iac unplugged (when opening the flaps for better atomization)

    if i have to change injectors, would it be better go up to 350 injectors, just because some day if i get this running well i maybe try to get prom for e+85 fuel also...

    i dont have latest datalog saved, ill have to try drive someday to get it also...
    Attached Files Attached Files

  5. #5
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    try this bin but it is for a stander trans
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #6
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    I found a BIG problem in your old .BIN.....VE1+VE2 = over 100% Values over 100% are limited to 100%. Your fuel adjustments to VE 1 and VE 2 are doing NOTHING with totals above 100%.

    Not to mention I found your timing table full of negative values.

    I also found issues with your air/fuel ratio target tables. Several of the tables are added togather and giving you commanded air/fuel ratios that are hitting the lean limit of 16.5:1!!! LEAVE THESE VALUES ALONE UNTIL AFTER THE VEs are TUNED.
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    Last edited by Fast355; 10-13-2013 at 04:09 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    I found a BIG problem in your old .BIN.....VE1+VE2 = over 100% Values over 100% are limited to 100%. Your fuel adjustments to VE 1 and VE 2 are doing NOTHING with totals above 100%.

    Not to mention I found your timing table full of negative values.

    I also found issues with your air/fuel ratio target tables. Several of the tables are added togather and giving you commanded air/fuel ratios that are hitting the lean limit of 16.5:1!!! LEAVE THESE VALUES ALONE UNTIL AFTER THE VEs are TUNED.

    I fixed what I saw and altered a few other things with values from a similar build. The timing map is one I created for a 4.3 Astro Van build I tuned that had flat-top pistons and a CPI cam in it with TBI heads.

    I would cautiously try it while monitoring the AFR and knock. This .BIN is fairly aggressive at higher RPM with 26-28* of timing from 4,600-5,600 RPM and a moderate advance curve for a heavy, undergeared vehicle with a stock torque converter. It shows 22* at 3,600 rpm, but i have the adder set for 2.5/1k and max of 5,600.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Fast355; 10-13-2013 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    I found a BIG problem in your old .BIN.....VE1+VE2 = over 100% Values over 100% are limited to 100%. Your fuel adjustments to VE 1 and VE 2 are doing NOTHING with totals above 100%.

    Not to mention I found your timing table full of negative values.

    I also found issues with your air/fuel ratio target tables. Several of the tables are added togather and giving you commanded air/fuel ratios that are hitting the lean limit of 16.5:1!!! LEAVE THESE VALUES ALONE UNTIL AFTER THE VEs are TUNED.

    thats little strange, for the timing, i only added few deg to orginal aksb.bin in middle area rpm range, i got knok over 3k rpm when adding more above it...

    for ve values you are correct.. it seems that i have done something wrong with it.. but that 100% been fine :) it worked.. i got decent afr:s :) for acceleration i think ther might be the reason but none of this helps for my idle still, i think...

    today was cold morning, -6.9C and car started well.. but running lean, 15 to 17 afr when open loop idling and accelerating slightly, cruise and wot fine...

  9. #9
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    here, this is idle i have now... afr 15.5 to 16.5:1

    only way to get rpm lower is to close throttle plate more, and then engine will run like s##t, rpm goes between 350 and 600, afr goes from 12 to 16:1 engine usually stalls and dies after sometime...











    how to make it something like 13-14:1 aft and 650-700 rpm...
    Last edited by rytari; 10-17-2013 at 12:27 PM.

  10. #10
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    Put the throttle stop screw back to where it was. It is a minimum air setting! Not an idle adjustment!

    There is an Open Loop AFR table that could be adjusted if need be.

    WinALDL is a good tool but very limited compared to TunerPro RT, then you can save a detailed data log and post it here for us to look at.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
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  11. #11
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    nope, cant do that... if i put it where it was in 1st place i wont have idle at all... im sorry that i write so bady that its difficult to understant.

    btw, i have allready little lowered my afr:s in that open loop table but it didnt help at all, if i get somehow idle running lower that 750 rpm afrs goes down momentarily or not down but both rpm and afr will constantly change and eventyally engine dies like i tried to say in my previous post... its now stop srew is set for smallest possible where engine still runs when iac disconnected, its something like 1/2th turn more open from the factory setting. but if i have to change that table more, how much i should change it... its now 12.00 in the open loop afr vs temp table for engine normal running temp... i cannot get past emission test if my rpm is higer that 1000 at idle... and faislt est alse if too much co2, hc etc..., runs too rich or stumbles so.

  12. #12
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rytari View Post


    here, this is idle i have now... afr 15.5 to 16.5:1

    only way to get rpm lower is to close throttle plate more, and then engine will run like s##t, rpm goes between 350 and 600, afr goes from 12 to 16:1 engine usually stalls and dies after sometime...

    how to make it something like 13-14:1 aft and 650-700 rpm...
    You've got something wrong! I'd say a big vacuum leak! Your turning in the stop screw all the way in and still high idle is proving that.

    Fast bin had the spark you need at idle for that cam. I didn't look but shoot for 700-750 RPM. It will only be accurate to that RPM in Drive, not Park or Neutral.

    With a larger cam you need all the air possible at throttle blade to mix with fuel from injector. So after car is warmed up and driven then look at IAC count in drive about 15-20 and in park as long as it has a few like 1-5. Then your throttle blade minimum air is set right. That is if your fueling and spark are set right!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
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  13. #13
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    You've also lowered your " IAC - Position vs Temp " so low and not changed " IAC - Kickdown Steps "

    "TIP: The kick down steps (@ $5D8) must be one step greater then the IAC position vs coolant table (@ $5F5) steps for the ECM to fully control the idle speed.
    "

    I may take back my vacuum leak? Since you have even IAC counts during the 1175 idle RPM picture, this above may be your issue?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    You've got something wrong! I'd say a big vacuum leak! Your turning in the stop screw all the way in and still high idle is proving that.

    Fast bin had the spark you need at idle for that cam. I didn't look but shoot for 700-750 RPM. It will only be accurate to that RPM in Drive, not Park or Neutral.

    With a larger cam you need all the air possible at throttle blade to mix with fuel from injector. So after car is warmed up and driven then look at IAC count in drive about 15-20 and in park as long as it has a few like 1-5. Then your throttle blade minimum air is set right. That is if your fueling and spark are set right!
    like i said, i have noticed engine will not run well below 750 rpm.. and that i have in drive but that over 1000 is too much in neutral for emission testing and also very hard for the trans when going from neutral to drive... iac count is from 0 to 2 in drive, but this 33-35 in neutral. if i disconnect iac and turn stop screw in engine dies below 650 rpm...

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    You've also lowered your " IAC - Position vs Temp " so low and not changed " IAC - Kickdown Steps "

    "TIP: The kick down steps (@ $5D8) must be one step greater then the IAC position vs coolant table (@ $5F5) steps for the ECM to fully control the idle speed.
    "

    I may take back my vacuum leak? Since you have even IAC counts during the 1175 idle RPM picture, this above may be your issue?
    ok... this i not been knowing... i thought this kickdown setting is used when coming from the speed to idle...

  15. #15
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    the iac steps seem backwards to me if its showing higher iac steps in neutral v's drive as if there was a gear selection wire wired wrong if that ecu even uses one like im used to

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