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Thread: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Not sure if any of you watch the binderplanet injection forum, but I am having a ongoing problem with PCM bins, Its in the pcm swap thread if anyone cares to look..
    I started out with the plan to swap in a 16197427 pcm in place of my current 1227747 ecm. I am planning on doing a MPFI intake build next year and swapping in this computer with it, but I figured hey, its also a tbi computer, who not swap it in now and start getting used to all the diffrences in tuning it and get it going good before the mpfi swap.
    I have a 7427 pcm I scored at the local pull a part for cheap. It came from a 95 1500 350 (bcc BJYK) I purchased the moates memcal header and read the stock bin.
    Well I thought all was good and I was simply poking around the bin looking at all the diffrent settings (and thinking I may be in over my head with this one...lol) And it started with a simple question that brought to attention my problem.
    I asked why there are two timing tables when they are both the same? The answer was they are not the same. Here lies the problem. I tried diffrent definations and even MANY diffrent bins, but get pretty much the same result. Both timing tables are the same and depending on the defination, the fuel maps are all screwed up. (from the wrong defination, I'm sure) So who know what else in the bins are screwed up. But with 0D the fuel maps for the most part look ok, but the timing tables are the same.
    I have tunerproRT version 5 (the most current version/update too) and I am using the version 5 definations. (0D_TPV5_v250.xdf, etc..)
    I went to moates and downloaded several stock bins under the 0D section and looked at all of them, all the same result. Most all I see the same timing tables.
    I have tried viewing the bins with $0D, $0E, and $31. I also have a 7427 pcm I got from the same junkyard and it was a V6, I read that chip and same results. And lastly I have a 16168625 from a V6. I read that chip and tried viewing it with $E6. Same result as the others. I have tried every bin I can find, V8, and V6, ones I read and ones I have downloaded from the net (even some from here). No luck.
    ANY ideas on wtf is going on? Is there some setting in tunerpro 5 I dont have set right, or what?
    $42 works perfectly fine. Every bin I have ever looked at with it was fine. I can datalog, tune, emulate, etc.. So why do these pcm bins not like me?

    Heres some pics of what I'm looking at.





    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    While I don't have that particular bin, I do have other $0D bins and at least one of them shows the same thing in both tables, while other bins will show almost the same with minor differences, and a couple others have drastic changes.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Post up the bin you have. You can add it as attachment here.

    Loose the Super $42 ADX file. It is broken. If you need the latest working version I can post it here EM2.ADX

    And you know you'll need an OD.ADX for this PCM as well...
    Attached Files Attached Files

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    Fuel Injected! gregs78cam's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Yes there are two timing and two VE tables. And there are parameters to set when they are used(TPS and MPH come to mind right off hand) For instance there are times when the engine is running in a certain cell but only idleing or coasting down with an auto, or you could be actually cruising at 25mph, both cases using the same cell, but needing drastically different fuel and timing. Setting the threasholds properly to switch between maps and tuning each map can help you dial things in a little better. Or just make them the same and don't worry about the threasholds and drive it like you stole it. It all depends on how far you want to go with it. Also the Idle VE table has a little better resolution in regards to RPM than the Open throttle VE table and only covers the lower RPM area. I don't have my laptop with me but later I can point out the threashold parameters.
    1978 Camaro Type LT, 383, Dual TBI, '7427, 4L80E
    1981 Camaro Z-28 Clone, T-Tops, 350/TH350
    1981 Camaro Berlinetta, V-6, 3spd
    1974 Chevy/GMC Truck, '90 TBI 350, '7427, TH350, NP203, 6" lift, 35s

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Well it seems that I have in fact been told wrong prior to this posting. I was told they were not the same, one was way diffrent than the other, and if they were displaying the same, then something was wong.
    Well I am glad to know that everything is in fact correct, as I was starting to get worried.
    But, how come this timing table maxes out at 30 degrees? Most all the 7747 bins I have looked at have always maxed out between 39 and 41 degrees.
    Are there other tables or settings that add timing to this table?
    There is a LOT I need to learn about these PCM's. They are a completly diffrent breed.
    Also, I will be running this with a manual trans. Will not having a auto transmission hooked to it cause any problems or check engine lights? I dont know anything about autos to know if those electronicly shifted ones have any sensors in them the pcm needs feedback from.

    Yea I know I will need the correct ADX file. I just simply had the xdf and bin pulled up to look at them. Didnt see the need to pull up the adx just to look at the bin.
    The super 42 I got from dave w (I think hes a member on here too) I will download the one you posted and see how it works. I have attached the bin.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    There's a lot to be learned about why different calibrations look different, or why the engineers made changes between different engines. It's not necessary for tuning but it's great if you want to start adapting calibrations to different engines. Some of the aluminum head TPI Vette cals show 46 degrees max timing in the main timing table, yet they're limited to much less than that in the "max advance" setting. But if you just copy and past the timing tables into another cal then you'll end up with way too much timing.

    You'll be better off learning this calibration new rather than trying to understand it in terms of the 7727 since there is a bunch, and I mean a whole bunch, more going on than the 7747 could handle.

    FWIW the BJYK you uploaded checks out as stock and good.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
    Also, I will be running this with a manual trans. Will not having a auto transmission hooked to it cause any problems or check engine lights? I dont know anything about autos to know if those electronicly shifted ones have any sensors in them the pcm needs feedback from.
    I think I have a manual bin for that PCM... but have been told you can easily just remove auto settings, have not tried either. The 427 must have a VSS.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    I just checked and I never did get the manual bin file. Supposedly BCC is BMLF
    It was needed in CA for EGR pintle position function of 427 to pass smog laws there even on manual trucks.

    Don't know if this is all true but comes from relible source.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Intresting, If anyone has, or knows where I could find that manual trans bin, it would be nice.
    I do have a working VSS on my current system, does the 7427 pcm use the same vss signal as the 7747 ecm I have now?

    Also, I had looked at a few diffrent bins I downloaded from moates and I had noticed some with more that 42 degrees of advance in the tables and thought I was just looking at the bin with the incorrect xdf. So why would they program in any advance more than 42 degrees? So as long as you have the setting programed for max advance, it wont go past that value even if there is more on the table?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
    Also, I had looked at a few diffrent bins I downloaded from moates and I had noticed some with more that 42 degrees of advance in the tables and thought I was just looking at the bin with the incorrect xdf. So why would they program in any advance more than 42 degrees? So as long as you have the setting programed for max advance, it wont go past that value even if there is more on the table?
    Right! take it as 10 engeneers making a timing table to run it's best and pass emmisions, then add scalers, retard, CT and there's ten things that merge. That' why you should only make one change at a time to make sure it worked. Lots of things should not be touched.

    Runit, get your fuel close before you worry about spark.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    The "max advance" has the final word on how much spark advance can be commanded by the ecm. Your total timing won't be more than max advance plus the "base timing" setting of the distributor.

    The manual trans equipped trucks used a C3 ECM (not PCM) number 16196395. There is no manual trans + V8 pickup with a 7427. I've got some cal #'s from S10's using manual trannies but they're listed under different pcm#'s so I'll have to do more research when I can keep my eyes open.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    I have a few manual trans bins available that are 4.3L

    Also the 16196395 and 16197427 are listed as same for definitions on TP website. $OD mask.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

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    Fuel Injected! gregs78cam's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    These are what I see for the transitions between Idle and Open throttle.

    0x4159 Max MPH for Idle spark
    0x415A TPS to return to Idle spark
    0x415B Max TPS for Idle spark
    0x415C Min Temp for Idle spark
    0x415D Min runtime for Idle spark

    0x48CE Max MPH for Idle VE
    0x48CF Max MPH for Idle Spark(? I know, a second location?)
    0x48D0 Max TPS for Idle VE
    1978 Camaro Type LT, 383, Dual TBI, '7427, 4L80E
    1981 Camaro Z-28 Clone, T-Tops, 350/TH350
    1981 Camaro Berlinetta, V-6, 3spd
    1974 Chevy/GMC Truck, '90 TBI 350, '7427, TH350, NP203, 6" lift, 35s

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    So is the "closed throttle" table what its refering to for idle spark? If so, then it looks like its a very narrow window of paramiters to be met for it to go into that table. SO, why is the table the same size and range as the open throttle table? When building/modding the table, would you simply copy and pase over the changes you made to one table into the 2nd one to make them both match?

    Using the bcc lookup from moates, it lists quite a few manual trans bins for the 7427 pcm, but I have no idea what those were for (car, truck, van, etc..)
    Also, like I said, I am still a noob to lots of this. What is a C3 ecm? I have seen the service number 16196395 in the bcc lookup several times. But have seen very little if any talk about them. Whats the diffrence between that and a regular (say 7747) ecm? And what the diffrence between that and the 7427?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Re: Can not get PCM bins to display correctly

    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
    So is the "closed throttle" table what its refering to for idle spark? If so, then it looks like its a very narrow window of paramiters to be met for it to go into that table. SO, why is the table the same size and range as the open throttle table? When building/modding the table, would you simply copy and pase over the changes you made to one table into the 2nd one to make them both match?
    Dave will tell you some day... for now I will say, leave them alone! Most stock conversions to other stock engines just work pretty good to start and some people never change them!

    How's your truck run? Is it a stock engine?

    That's just my opinion. Then tune it! If it don't run, most conversions are a mechanical error, or wiring error, or fuel pressure error...

    I mean are you studying here? Fine that's way cool cause I'm all ears, I do not have much time in on any C4s. But if your trying to get your truck running? just an idea. data is always better!

    Back on track:
    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
    Using the bcc lookup from moates, it lists quite a few manual trans bins for the 7427 pcm, but I have no idea what those were for (car, truck, van, etc..)
    Also, like I said, I am still a noob to lots of this. What is a C3 ecm? I have seen the service number 16196395 in the bcc lookup several times. But have seen very little if any talk about them. Whats the diffrence between that and a regular (say 7747) ecm? And what the diffrence between that and the 7427?
    If you find a manaul bin then post it up? Then at least we can look for the correct BCC.

    7747 is considered a C3 computer. 16197427 and 395 are just like other C4 computers. Better. Newer. Faster. And within the last couple years just exploded with def files. Tons and Tons of stuff you don't need to touch to get running.

    Then record some data and see where you need to adjust.

    Back to our regular topic!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

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