Bringing TBI and Multi Port Fuel Injection to a New Level.     EFI Conversions and Tuning! Seattle to Portland! E-mail Tuning Consultant!
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 87

Thread: Food for thought

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    49
    Posts
    219

    Food for thought

    Tom and I were talking a few weeks back about going about the lack of TC issue anther way

    This is all is hypothetical

    What if we came up with a new software package that allowed a user to use the TC VDFs as the dbfs . We talked about a couple of ways to do that and one way will allow you to compare unalike OSs.
    We also have a way to stop VDF sharing and we would implement this and have an option to pull the plug on anyone that violates the agreements. We would think that John would be happy selling VDFs and WinFlash. We would be happy with our software sales

    We are looking at an alternative to WF also. The calibration contains a hell of a lot more information than you would think.

    As a matter of fact I can proof it. I have a NON Global Electrical Architect Vehicle and it shows flash counts
    just talking out load and all hypothetically

  2. #2
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    57
    Posts
    10,477
    My first thought is... if this is legal with software licensing on TunerCat and we have Johns blessing? Then all is well.

    He has done more for the DIY EFI tuning community then any other software company and all at a fair price for a great product. Probably has been screwed more too and we don't it here!

    TunerCat definitions are always a good thing! Seem to always have an edge on others. The drawback is of course the restrictions after sale to Jet DST and lack of software updates.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    49
    Posts
    219
    We would not sell any VDF's. Our software would need a key code that would lock the VDF to our software and if you hack our lock and share we will lock down our software

  4. #4
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    57
    Posts
    10,477
    Locking software globally would screw everyone? Not just some hackers? I must not understand that correctly but like the protection thought. No one would be intrested if it could become useless and stop working at some point?

    What would I do with my VDFs as I own them all? Not sure if I would want them locked to new software and not be able to use in TunerCat? Even more so with sentence above ^^

    Just trying to help think this through with you...

    Seems like a bigger issue is items missing or needed in the definitions which is something you have the capabilities of fixing or adding. There is a VDF editor to change and add to definitions but it's not much help without dissasembly skills...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    49
    Posts
    219
    people have been trading VDF's for years. John looses out. John has away currently to keep the trading down, but I am not going into that. If we came out with a software package that has nothing to do with John at all other than it excepts his VDF's then JET will have not say in it. John will be selling his VDF's and possibly WF, but I think we can come up with a better package

  6. #6
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Idaho
    Age
    57
    Posts
    10,477
    Well the TunerCat OBDII software could use an update. So say your software is up to date, comparable to what's available like EFI Live, HP Tuners or TunerPro RT.

    What's it going to use for a data logger?

    Still need a flash program and TunerCat WinFlash is listed as $300 if he will sell them? Right now it is to dealers/TunerCat OBDII owners.

    LS1 Flash and a cable that will be available for sale to public soon with no licensing restrictions for $400. Cables are expensive!

    $80 for each definition if TunerCat will sell them.

    There's $380 to start. How much for your software?

    Still need a data logger, how much?

    TunerPro RT is $39 and files are wide open for editing, it is what a tuner software tool should be like. Already has a LS1 definition/xdf and already has a data logger/adx which includes AD inputs for Wide Band O2 for the 0411 PCM. Along with LS1 Flash with cable that has the AD ports for Wide Band O2. Right now covers only one, but the main need of all LS engines. Total cost to get going is $439.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  7. #7
    Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Lakes Region, NH
    Age
    48
    Posts
    2,801
    Without information from TC describing how the VDF is formatted, you're going to have to reverse engineer the file. Most software agreements call this a no-no. Additionally, TC VDF sales may be limited to people who have licensed copies of TC OBDII. No need making software to use a definition you can't get.

    I can remember issues with LT1Edit. Valid calls for lost or damaged cables resulted in "Buy another software package." because of policy on part of authors that any call was due to piracy. It was unpopular. What would happen if a person called you with issue that wasn't their fault? Is that person going to continue to be locked down bad guy pirate hacker? Imagine how good life would be if your first speeding ticket landed you in jail for life.

    Just to play Devil's advocate, should you really be working as the VDF Police when you offer to unlock other tuner's locked pcm's for a fee? Aren't you only inviting someone to offer an "unlock" service for your software?

    An unofficial policy might be to offer a service for converting VDF's to your definition format. Charge a small fee per definition unless the person asking to convert can show proof of purchase or is licensed with TC. Then do it for free. Why the charge? Kick it back to John. If your software becomes popular then people with illegal VDF's are still going to contribute to TC. No questions asked. And you might even bring in new customers who are currently unable to get TC.

    The state of the art today imo would put scanning and tuning in one package with some cool tools included for auto VE and / or spark corrections based on logs. Additionally, software might come with some very cool references or tools for installing some of the more common or known injectors. Having to search for injector corrections for parts that have been around for 15 years is just old news.

    Ultimately I'd love to see the one definition, one car and pay-per-use models go away. John sold licensing to Jet for a reason... maybe he wasn't getting anywhere near the revenue he thought with his approach. But he's still making VDF's and I'd love to see a way for those definitions to get used by non-Jet users and generate money for TC.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,868
    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post
    Ultimately I'd love to see the one definition, one car and pay-per-use models go away.
    I agree.

    I haven't found a good reason for the current pay per use idea other than greed.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Camden, MI
    Age
    28
    Posts
    3,026
    lack of competition without that licensing scheme. if you can charge people more, why not do so?



    of course, i have a pretty bad business sense, i just give stuff away unless it's physical.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    49
    Posts
    219
    We would not be opening the VDF's or reverse engineering them at all. We own TC, JET's DTS, Moates TC Road Runner, Wester's Duramax Diesel Tuner and they are all the same program. This is why JET never paid Westers for the diesel program.


    What Tom and I were talking about was 100% hypothetical.

    Our software would use TC VDF's. The VDF's are just templates that the software uses to edit a calibration. Think of it as a road map. Another name for a VDF is a Data base File (DBF). A DBF is like a spread sheet with reference numbers. If you have used EFILive you know what I am talking about. Say parameter B1203 Min Inj Pulse --- Min Inj Pulse is always B1203. In the DBF you add B1203 to a column in the Min Inj Pulse row. This is how you can compare unalike OS's in other software brands

    Looks like this

    and expands like this




    This is not very organized
    Last edited by Caleditor; 09-01-2013 at 08:39 AM.

  11. #11
    Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Lakes Region, NH
    Age
    48
    Posts
    2,801
    I understand hypothetical. You guys are proposing a way to keep TC files alive and active and that's great. But hypothetically, if you're Jet, and you see someone using part of your tool to take away your market, what would you do?

    The programs are the same, but not. The definition files are the same, but not. Definition files are password tied to the program they are sold for. IIRC the licensing for a definition states that if you make a definition it belongs to you. If you modify an existing definition ownership remains with the original author. Are you even allowed, per TC licensing agreement, to lock someone else's definition file?

    I can't find a current Jet product which supports the 6.5 diesel. Are you telling me Jet's selling them unlicensed? AFAIK those files are Lyndon's and he gets pretty upset if they get used improperly or without permission. Even TC never marketed them so I don't know how Lyndon would react if you called to ask for the password for his definition file in order to run it in TCII or in Jet's program. But I have a hunch.

    The data in those tables shows where variables are stored within a calibration. What I'm talking about is where the data is stored in the definition file and how the file is laid out. Without that information it seems like you will have trouble making headway. But maybe you have a different approach in mind.

    You know, here's another idea. Why not set up tuning software so it has to be "renewed" or "re-licensed" every now and again. Charge nothing for the re-licensing but tie it to ISP or other information that's not going to change too frequently for most users. Allow a path to re-license if ISP of requesting machine is different than expected but include several different security checks. It might be a PITA but it will reduce program usage by anyone but licensed users. Tie definition file "renewal" to software updates as well and cross check defs being used against database of licensed users. Downside is a casual user can get stuck if server's down or trying to tune while away from 'net access but there may be ways to include backup plan there, too.

    So...

    Iif you're asking if independent software that can use VDF's is a cool idea, I say yes, absolutely.

    If you're asking how people feel about locking down software at the first indication of sharing then I don't think a "one strike" rule is appropriate.

    If you're asking about using VDF's, I say please make sure all your ducks are in a row before releasing anything.
    Last edited by 1project2many; 09-02-2013 at 05:56 AM.

  12. #12
    Fuel Injected! roughneck427's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Fresno CA
    Age
    42
    Posts
    258
    If it ain't broke don't fix it. Majority of the DIY TC users I think wouldn't even use it. TC IMO works just fine maybe just ad your compare deal to current TC deal with John

  13. #13
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    235
    People do share, VDF's, I dont know how much of an issue it really is though. Once you have a VDF illegaly, you can never go to John to get it updated, your scamming self is dependant on your scamming source of the scammed VDF's.
    Heck they are only $80 a piece (Lyndons 6.5 diesel VDF's for TC2 are $100 and yoi cant read the PCM), but people are cheap. Have I shared, no, have I asked for VDF's, yes-once and at the time I really didnt realize what I was doing-but was promptly denied the files.

    All the TC/Westers GMT stuff is similar, but not the same. Westers GMT and his Diesel are password protected, there are little intricacies about each program.

    I cant believe that Jet DST is using the Diesel stuff without paying. But I found it at the Jet site for download Heck Jet is way back at 2.01. TC is at 3.18.
    FREE! Dynamic Spectrum Tuner Diesel Demo Version

    Click Here to Download the Diesel Version

    While the DST program will run on virtually any PC running Windows 95 or later, we recommend the following minimum PC specifications:
    • Pentium 266
    • Windows 98
    • 64 MB RAM
    • 800 x 600 display resolution
    • 20 MB free hard drive space
    • 9 pin serial connector or 9 pin serial to USB adapter

    peace
    Hog
    Last edited by Hog; 09-02-2013 at 02:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Fuel Injected!
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    235
    Quote Originally Posted by 1project2many View Post


    Ultimately I'd love to see the one definition, one car and pay-per-use models go away. John sold licensing to Jet for a reason... maybe he wasn't getting anywhere near the revenue he thought with his approach. But he's still making VDF's and I'd love to see a way for those definitions to get used by non-Jet users and generate money for TC.
    back when John sold TC2 to Jet, said that he didnt want to get such a large customer base that he couldnt privide support. So he cut himself a slice and sold the rights to Jet.

    Yes Johns still making VDF's, and you and I are using those VDF's, we are non-Jet customers making for John. So long as everyone doesnt scam the VDF. Unless you mean making money for those VDF's in some other fashion?

    John provides great support, better than others.

    peace
    Hog

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    49
    Posts
    219
    Thanks Paul. ----- we would lock down our software if the wrong VDF is applied. I think John's VDF's sale would go up a little

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-21-2012, 10:41 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •