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Thread: $58 timing with DIS

  1. #1
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    $58 timing with DIS

    Ok, so I'm testing different masks (codes) on my car, to both get more familiar with them and see if there is another issue else where.

    Well, I have been running $59 for about 4 years now on my Nissan L28 (Inline 2.8L 6 cyl) with DIS, and it runs very well, I can get response from practically every change I make, especially anything to do with timing, easy to see with a timing light.

    Well, I used a known good running $59 bin that I had to set-up a $58 bin for my car. I manually copied over the main values that I figured would need to be changed and figured that the $59 values would be close enough to start with. Well they were, mostly.

    The issue is, that my timing seems to be locked at somewhere around 45 degrees BTDC, I can NOT get this to move, using the offset tables, using the F1 table, etc. I can get some change if I set the spark reference angle to something closer to that of a dizzy bin. but obviously the engine doesn't run well then. The timing doesn't seem to follow what is in the main SA table (F1), even with this change. It just appears locked. The ECM IS commanding timing somehow, because when I switch the bypass switch off (I have a switch in place of the connector), base timing lines right up at 10 degrees BTDC. With the switch on and running with the base timing the actual timing seems to get locked at the aforementioned 45 or so degrees (My timing pointer only goes up to about 20 degrees, so I'm guestimating the actual advance at this point).

    My settings to run my DIS are as follows:
    Spark Reference Angle (KREFANGL) 59.77
    Max Spark Advance (KMAXADV) -9.84
    Max Spark Retard (KMAXRTD2) -70

    Hardware:
    Nissan 2.8L I6 Turbo
    60 degree V6 DIS ICM and coils
    1227749 ECM
    2 BAR MAP sensor (When testing $58)
    3 BAR MAP sensor when using $59
    Ostrich EPROM emulator

    Software:
    Tuner Pro RT V5
    XDF:
    58_2bar_1.3.xdf (attached)
    Bin:
    Started with a 4cyl Turbo Sunbird Manual bin, AKDB (modified bin for my car attached)

    These are the same settings I am using with the $59 bin, and work fine there.

    The car does start, idle and free rev very well, with this bin, but I'm not going to attempt driving it with this until I get this timing control sorted out.

    I noticed that the timing value displayed on my TunerviewII would stay pretty locked around 13* most of the time, though I was able to move this value by changing scalers and compensation tables, but I can't be certain that $58 and $59 use the same ALDL word for the timing value. On the laptop the TDC value was in the 10s of thousands of degrees BTDC, usually around the 20000 degrees mark, which is obviously not correct. lol

    I have had this issue on another car, that is also not the original application for $58, and need to get to the bottom of this.

    Any insight?
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  2. #2
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    That xdf is in error. At one point there was a discussion on code59 regarding min and max advance. I noticed the max retard formula was wrong in the $59 xdf and submitted a correction. The correction does not appear to have been applied to the $58 xdf they host. Additionally, the posted xdf treats the spark limits as unsigned integers which prevents them from being displayed as negative spark values.

    When corrected, the spark limits are displayed as max advance = 0 and max retard = -12 deg. With the crank sensor at 60 deg BTDC, a 12 deg minimum value would lock timing at about 60 - 12 deg, roughly 48 deg.
    Last edited by 1project2many; 08-06-2013 at 08:12 AM.

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    I did notice that they were unsigned when I couldn't save a negative value, so I changed that myself, but still had the locked timing issue.

    I'll download that XDF and give it a try.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    ARG! I'm getting a "name must start with alphabetic character or _" error, like I had earlier with another XDF.

    Can you zip it and re-attach? That seems to be the only way to keep this from happening. I think there might be a problem with how either Chrome downloads files or something with this site, or both.

    --==EDIT==--

    It's not Chrome, IE does it too, so it must be the site.

    It seems to be an issue with that one XDF you have attached. Putting it in a zip archive should correct it.
    The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.

  5. #5
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    does it on my pc too

  6. #6
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    We always do XDF with no issues? I downloaded and changed the name... still no go. Opened it in Note pad and it looks fine? Something wrong?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
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  7. #7
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    We always do XDF with no issues? I downloaded and changed the name... still no go. Opened it in Note pad and it looks fine? Something wrong?
    I've done all the same, not sure what the issue is. I had a similar issue with another XDF that I had previously, but had the zip version of it, re-unzipped it, and it worked fine.
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  8. #8
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    Well, at least you can report an honest to goodness bug to Mark M. Any attempt to save that definition under a different filename results in a corrupt definition. I've run a small series of tests using good definitions including that one using various permutations of the filename and it won't work. Zipping and unzipping does not fix it. Yet I can save other definitions correctly, and can even save another definition to that file name using overwrite, and there are no problems. TP and TPRT are adding data to the definition file during the save. Here's the result of a lod and save under a different file name.

    1. C:\Documents and Settings\ShannenD\My Documents\TunerPro Files\Bin Definitions\58_2Bar_1.3.xdf: 278,740 bytes
    2. C:\Documents and Settings\ShannenD\My Documents\TunerPro Files\Bin Definitions\58_2Bar_1.31.xdf: 396,886 bytes

    I've deleted the corrupt file. I'v attached two different XDFs which are confirmed to save and reload properly. One is an older version of Rob Rauscher's $58 definition and one appears to be a 2 and 3 BAR compatible version of the 1.3 definition. They are correct for the spark limits but I have no idea if they are correct anywhere else. Both files are attached. If you find glaring errors in either, please advise.

    The hex values for the limits you want are $FFE4 (max advance) and $FF39 (max retard). If all else fails you could manually enter them into the .bin and use the version 1.3 definition for other editing.

    Sorry for the confusion.
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  9. #9
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting these xdfs. I will attempt again tomorrow and see how things go.
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    Any updates?

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Six_Shooter's Avatar
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    No, I wasn't able to get to it tonight, too many other things that were more important.

    I did go through and compare some XDFs, in the three values we are concerned with here, max advance/retard and reference angle. And the forumulas were the same between them, the only difference being signed/unsigned for a couple of the values, and I did change those settings in the XDFs I had.

    I'm starting with a fresh bin, just in case anything was corrupted previously.

    The one thing that strikes me as odd, is the F28 in one of the XDFs you posted shows very different values, due to the conversion. It shows very small values, of less than one (decimal values) where other XDFs shows complete values, usually in the 130 and up range.
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  12. #12
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    i tested some of these codes years ago and a lot wernt good when changing reference settings for dis it would just lock timing due to hard coding in the bins not allowing changes if i remember right $59 had changes to allow dis changes

  13. #13
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    Well, 1project2many says he had $58 running his DIS Sunbird years ago, so unless there was another change that he's forgot to mention, I'd think it should work. I can't imagine him driving around with locked timing.
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  14. #14
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    i think a lot of it was how the xdf's were setup back then and displaying different figures in different xdf's the joys of the diy community and multiple people making xdf's for different code bases.it was 2007 when i ran $59 with $58 dis values to get a car running to have a play and was messing with code looking back on old thread it was an xdf issue displaying wrong numbers

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    I did go through and compare some XDFs, in the three values we are concerned with here, max advance/retard and reference angle. And the forumulas were the same between them, the only difference being signed/unsigned for a couple of the values, and I did change those settings in the XDFs I had.
    I can not vouch for the XDF's other than the max advance / retard settings. The formula that's typically wrong is max retard at 2.0000 * X + 0. The early $59 xdf is where I first discovered it. And it's no surprise since no one was altering those values significantly.

    The one thing that strikes me as odd, is the F28 in one of the XDFs you posted shows very different values, due to the conversion. It shows very small values, of less than one (decimal values) where other XDFs shows complete values, usually in the 130 and up range.
    Is the F28 table showing low numbers in the RR definition? The F28 table has always had low numbers in TC software as well. I was surprised to learn most xdf's use a conversion which displays higher values. Here's a thread on thirdgen that shows low values in that table: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...-bpw-58-a.html Regardless, if you scale the values based on engine displacement and injector size you'll get the correct constant.

    Well, 1project2many says he had $58 running his DIS Sunbird years ago, so unless there was another change that he's forgot to mention, I'd think it should work. I can't imagine him driving around with locked timing.
    I usually adjust the time correction to match DIS but that value has nothing to do with locked timing. The engine I used $58 on was actually a 2.2 powered Cavalier and I drove it for almost 5 years before it rusted out.

    i tested some of these codes years ago and a lot wernt good when changing reference settings for dis it would just lock timing due to hard coding in the bins not allowing changes if i remember right $59 had changes to allow dis changes
    The timing code between $58 and $59 is the same. The only gotcha in the code is if your limit is greater than 90 degrees or less than -90 deg. There have been several issues with incorrect conversions, limits treated as 8 bit values, and limits being treated as unsigned integers. For many years I advented calculating the value by hand and using a hex editor to enter it manually but that method never caught on. Maybe for the same reason very few people use scientific view on Winnows calculator.

    think a lot of it was how the xdf's were setup back then and displaying different figures in different xdf's the joys of the diy community and multiple people making xdf's for different code bases.
    Much good has come from open definition file development. Unfortunately, with no controls or no "authority" there are unknown number of incomplete, wrong, or just plain different files out there. Maybe you guys have an advantage in that respect with the limited number of Delco boxes available. I wouldn't be surprised if bad definitions for $58 are still surfacing in 2023.
    Last edited by 1project2many; 08-07-2013 at 02:20 PM.

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