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Thread: TBI install on Fresh Rebuilt 350 & a Newbie Programmer

  1. #1
    Electronic Ignition!
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    Smile TBI install on Fresh Rebuilt 350 & a Newbie Programmer

    Hi Everyone,

    This is my first venture into the tuning world and my second post onto this forum. I just purchased the Moates APU1 system and I have the new adapter soldered into my board and I'm ready to burn a BIN file. I'm looking for any warnings or advice on the risk during initial start up with a fresh motor that hs never started and is not broken in.

    I have an entire TBI and ignition system from an 88 Suburban that had auto tranny (7747 ECM). I also took the intake manifold. This is installed into my Jeep CJ5 with a Chevy 350 and 4spd manual (1975 motor w/wedge smog heads). I rebuilt the engine with some light upgrades in performance:
    • Bored .030 over
    • Decked block (between boring out and decking the compression should be about 0.5 higher)
    • Low RPM torque cam Summit pt# 1102 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-1102)
    • Three angle valve seat job.


    Before purchasing the Moates hardware I tried starting it with the stock chip and discovered after much cranking that the injectors were flooding the engine. The base timing is set to 0 degrees. TDC on #1 is correct and verified by hard stop method. The motor will pop off at WOT but then it starts the excess flooded fuel on fire. I verified grounds are all terminated, MAP is going to intake vacuum port in runner. All sensors are hooked up (with exception of VSS).

    To trouble shoot the rich condition I decided to purchase the APU1 and just get it running for starters. Then tuning after that. After some struggling I have figured out how to burn a BIN file onto my new chip (I feel like having a party to have gotten this far!). If I had done no mods to the engine I would just install it and try starting again and then start trouble shooting with the logging/scanner capability of TunerProRT version 5.0 that I have. However, since I have mods to the engine described above and the motor is not broken in, is there a risk that a stock tune could damage the engine? This is my #1 question right now.

    From what I've read for a beginner programmer like me, making mods to timing and VE tables is not the place to start. At this point I've read a lot. I think it's time to start trying to ask a couple questions before I take the next step. Any comments appreciated!

  2. #2
    Fuel Injected!
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    I would check the fuel pressure,should be around 12lbs, check cts sensor and wiring, check map voltage when it starts should go from 4somthing down to 1-1.2, tps voltage should be around .50-.75. check for vacuum leaks it should start an run without the chip in it if everything is correct. it runs on a I think its called a nuetris chip it go into limp home mode. check for bad grounds also. fuel return line?
    Last edited by ony; 08-03-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  3. #3
    Fuel Injected! jim_in_dorris's Avatar
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    Which BCC are you using? You might want to start with a manual bin, it will make your life easier. I believe that ASDX is the bin you might want to start with, it is located on this site and Mark has an excellent ADX and XDF for it. For first start up, do the cam breakin routine. 2000-2500 rpm for 20 minutes. remember the ZPF.
    Square body stepsides forever!!!

  4. #4
    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    I would check the CTS like ony said. Seems I remember a thread on here where soeone had a simillar issue with it flooding badly when trying to start, and I think it ended up being a bad CTS. Seems I remember reading that when they go bad, the ecm peggs at -40 degrees and it pours the fuel to the engine to try and get it to crank.
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  5. #5
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    That cam should not cause a super rich condition? So if you don't have a vacuum leak? Check fuel pressure, lot's of times on conversions the return line is not clear and this will raise pressure!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  6. #6
    Electronic Ignition!
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    • For checking sensor voltages I'd like to use the datalogging/scanning capability of TunerPro. That's what I'm going to try tomorrow. It's not clear to me how this will show up in the software, but I have the ALDL harness wired in so we'll see what happens. I'm told I should be able to see cranking RPM of the motor too and verify that temp sensors are at ambient (even without the engine turning over too).



    • Found the ASDX BIN. I'll go with that one. As far as the XDF and ADX, I found a couple on the "1227747 ECM Information $42 thread". None of them refer to ASDX, the XDF I loaded is "$42-1227747-V5.9.3.xdf" and the ADX is $42-1227747-V3T.adx". Were you referring to some different XDF and ADX files for the ASDX BIN? Also, what does the acronym BCC mean?



    • Cam break in- 20 minutes running at a high idle sounds scary considering I just installed the TBI system too but I guess I have no other option here. The ZPF is some sort of zinc additive I assume. That is what I have in there.



    • Fuel pressure- I haven't checked up to this point because I have all the matched OEM components including a new fuel pump from Autozone. The pump is installed into a tank that I built and it has a return line plumbed in too. I have a little cheap analogue fuel pressure gauge with 1/8npt male stud on it. I haven't installed it because there isn't a place to tap into it after the regulator in the cast housing of the TBI unit and I figured it would be useless to tap into the line before the regulator. So I don't disagree that I should verify fuel pressure but I considered it low risk at this stage. I assume more likely there's a disconnected wire or vacuum line somewhere that is escaping me. Hopefully the logger/scanner will help me find it. if anyone has a way they have checked TBI fuel pressure I would like to hear it. I contemplated taking the little cast piece off that connects the regulator to the injectors and drilling and tapping a 1/8NPT hole into it.

  7. #7
    Fuel Injected! jim_in_dorris's Avatar
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    BCC is broadcast code... ASDX in this case. you have the correct xdf and adx. That is standard break in rpm and time. First start it and make sure you have oil pressure and no strange sounds. yes ZPF is zinc additive. if you are using tunerpro rt, watch for a lean condition after it goes closed loop. over 128 for BLM is lean, under is rich. rich is safer than lean on a new motor. you can vary the rpms, but nothing over 2000-2500, and you want it up around that range to start wearing in the cam and lifters.
    Square body stepsides forever!!!

  8. #8
    Electronic Ignition!
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    I've tried connecting to data log without success and haven't found answers or troubleshooting help anywhere online. Two things I suspect at this point:

    1.) I may need to change the BAUD to 160 in the ADX editor. However, every time I type it into the text box it does not stay saved in there. TunerPro RT Help file says there is "Special Handling" for the GM 160 Baud. I'm wondering if there's a special check box somewhere. Or maybe I shouldn't be messing with this setting at all. The Default BAUD is 1200 when I open the ADX file.

    2.) I recently wired in the ALDL harness from a wiring schematic I had located. If it is wrong I don't know how I would know.



    Here's a little more background information I posted on tunerpro forum the other day: I'm using ADX file $42-1227747-V3T.adx. I have the APU1 unit plugged into COM3 and set latency rate to 1ms like instructions say at Moates. I pass the data acquisition test under the configure plug in menu. I have the horizontal switches configured per Moates instructions. The ignition is on on my vehicle.

  9. #9
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    There are no changes needed to ADX file. The one you have is OK, but really for Turbo 400. Since you have a manual it does not matter but use $42-1227747-V5.2.adx because I have more work into it.

    Always use same USB port that you installed the AutoProm on to avoid Com port issues.

    Cable installation if you are using the AutoProm as Pass through = just like a cable:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-TunerPro-RT

    Or just have both switches on AutoProm in! Then set up TunerPro for AutoProm in preferences and Detect Hardware at Start up, you'll know it is working correctly when you have AutoProm plugged in and open TunerPRo as it will beep when it auto finds the AP.

    I've never had to change anything when installing the AutoProm on computers. Just plug it in and it installs correctly. A lot of the stuff on Moates for that is very old, before windows drivers were auto installed.

    Once you open TunerPro and here the confirmation beep and see it has found it? Load the ADX file, hook up to ALDL port and click the connect button, it should work when key is turned on.

    Also load the $42-1227747-V5.9.3.xdf and ASDX bin file. Do you have the ribbon cable hooked up to ECM yet? If so Emulation, Upload to Emulator, Verify, Then emulate. When you turn key on the CEL should come on, blink and stay on till engine is running. If CEL is flashing? Then it is not emulating properly. Try again.

    To simplify use of AutoProm in TunerPro click on View and check Emulation. Get used to the Icons as they are so much easier.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  10. #10
    Electronic Ignition!
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    I got connected by using the APU1 instead of setting it to pass through mode! I also switched to $42-1227747-V5.2.adx. The CEL does the routine you described. Now, the Data dash shows values that don't look right. I pressed the gas pedal to move the TPS and some items updated on the data dash and then stuck there. Restarting software and they're still stuck there. Basically all the needles are pegged on high and numbers on all the actual digits displayed for other items look high too. I get a blue box that says connected and the values did change once but now it's locked up. Baby steps...

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    There are no changes needed to ADX file. The one you have is OK, but really for Turbo 400. Since you have a manual it does not matter but use $42-1227747-V5.2.adx because I have more work into it.

    Always use same USB port that you installed the AutoProm on to avoid Com port issues.

    Cable installation if you are using the AutoProm as Pass through = just like a cable:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-TunerPro-RT

    Or just have both switches on AutoProm in! Then set up TunerPro for AutoProm in preferences and Detect Hardware at Start up, you'll know it is working correctly when you have AutoProm plugged in and open TunerPRo as it will beep when it auto finds the AP.

    I've never had to change anything when installing the AutoProm on computers. Just plug it in and it installs correctly. A lot of the stuff on Moates for that is very old, before windows drivers were auto installed.

    Once you open TunerPro and here the confirmation beep and see it has found it? Load the ADX file, hook up to ALDL port and click the connect button, it should work when key is turned on.

    Also load the $42-1227747-V5.9.3.xdf and ASDX bin file. Do you have the ribbon cable hooked up to ECM yet? If so Emulation, Upload to Emulator, Verify, Then emulate. When you turn key on the CEL should come on, blink and stay on till engine is running. If CEL is flashing? Then it is not emulating properly. Try again.

    To simplify use of AutoProm in TunerPro click on View and check Emulation. Get used to the Icons as they are so much easier.

  11. #11
    Electronic Ignition!
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    I'm back messing with my Jeep today. I noticed that the gauges were at normal levels on the dash before and after connecting to datalogging untill I pressed the print screen button on my laptop. Then the gauges spiked and they won't go back. Even when I unplug the ECM from the harness, restart Tuner Pro and unplug the AuptoProm unit. I have also noticed the emulator will not connect. Something is definately wrong but I'm just up against a wall with this right now. Here's an image before connecting
    data dash before connection.jpg

    After connecting and pressing the printscreen button. Can't get away from this now. Before the gauges spiked and I was connected voltages were registering for the AUtoprom of about .4V.
    key on data logging.jpg

    Here's a shot of my setup. You can see the makeshift CEL dangling over the pedals. It is working though.
    computer setup.JPG
    Here's the underhood. I have all the wire loom striped for tracing.
    underhood.JPG

    And for kicks here's a picture of my Jeep.
    side.JPG

  12. #12
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Strange behavior from Print Screen?

    The AutoProm volt gauge won't help unless you have something like a Wide Band O2 sensor connected to the AD ports of AutoProm

    The picture shows your not emulating? So really no way to know for sure what is loaded in AutoProm or what the ECM is doing? Red stripe on ribbon cable to inside of ECM? Red stripe goes on side of chip with notch. If the AP is uploaded, verified, emulate and CEL works correctly? Then start vehicle and connect for data.

    Is there a reason your not running when trying to get data?

    I wonder if this is going to be another FTDI driver issue? Look at this link and follow along, find out what drivers you have?
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-TunerPro-RT

    More on the FTDI Driver issues we have been having lately and the fix is here:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...ll=1#post26827

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  13. #13
    Electronic Ignition!
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    Just installed the older driver and set it up in device manager. Before I connect the screen looked like this:
    driver 14 before connect.jpg

    And after connecting for data log it went back to wrong values everywhere:
    driver 14 after connect.jpg
    I'm not sure what you mean by AP uploaded and verified. I think it is. Emulate still doesn't work. CEL does. Emulate cable is installed correctly into adapter.

    The reason I'm not running the engine is because it won't start. The injectors flood the engine. So, everything I've been doing is simply with ignition ON and engine OFF. If I can get to the point of data logging with values that make sense I'm hoping to troubleshoot a bad sensor or something else. The fact that I ran all the grounds and powers from the OEM harness to my jeeps aftermarket fuse panel makes me wonder if I could have done it wrong but I followed the $42 wire harness diagram and the CEL works. I have 4 wires going to the ALDL port. I think it only needs 3 but there's another one from the fuel pump relay that I ran to it which I noticed in the diagram too. I'm a little suspicious of that because I don't know why that would go to the ALDL port.


    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Strange behavior from Print Screen?

    The AutoProm volt gauge won't help unless you have something like a Wide Band O2 sensor connected to the AD ports of AutoProm

    The picture shows your not emulating? So really no way to know for sure what is loaded in AutoProm or what the ECM is doing? Red stripe on ribbon cable to inside of ECM? Red stripe goes on side of chip with notch. If the AP is uploaded, verified, emulate and CEL works correctly? Then start vehicle and connect for data.

    Is there a reason your not running when trying to get data?

    I wonder if this is going to be another FTDI driver issue? Look at this link and follow along, find out what drivers you have?
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-TunerPro-RT

    More on the FTDI Driver issues we have been having lately and the fix is here:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...ll=1#post26827

  14. #14
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Look at wiring to your fuse panel, the ECM needs Batt power all the time and it also needs Ignition on power. This power has to be steady from key on, to crank and back to key on. Un-interrupted!

    B1 and C16 need 12 volt all the time.
    A6 needs power when key on.
    Use this sheet to check voltages with key on:
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...0&d=1331599730

    Now lets start with ALDL wiring.
    ALDL port pin A to Ground
    ALDL port pin B to ECM A8
    ALDL port pin E to ECM A9

    That's it, nothing else, like this diagram.
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...5&d=1331599707

    AutoProm move both switches in.
    TunerPro load your XDF, ADX and bin file like you have in those pictures.
    TunerPro hoover over the Up Arrow and it should say "Upload Current Bin to Emulator" and click it.
    Then over three Icons is Verify Emulator Ram against Current bin" If it Verifies OK?
    Then over to next Icon and Emulate, click.
    Now you are emulating the bin loaded in TunerPRo from the AutoProm.

    Turn key on and watch for it to come on, blink and stay on?

    I know everyone wants to use the dashboards but I'm not sure how each one is set. You need to right click on everything and choose what you want there. So let's leave that alone for now.

    Open Item lists to Sensor Data to see what is happening.

    Now go over to Double arrows and Acquire Data (Connect/Disconnect). What's happening?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected!
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    One thing I see is his MAP location, they are super picky and should only be connected to the rear port of the TBI. A cam of that spec at stock fuel pressure should have no issue running on a stock chip. The old school heads will want the timing advanced 6-10° over the swirl ports though. IIRC my 305 was set as much as 12° BTDC running 601' heads and the same cam grind. My 305 ran lean with a 305 chip and injectors but about right on 350 stuff. This was 2003 before I owned chip burning equipment, so I put a TPI pump in the tank and ran 55# 305 injectors and a marine regulator for vacuum reference. It wasn't perfect but ran great.
    Last edited by Fast355; 08-18-2013 at 11:13 AM.

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