Ideas for 4 cylinder MPFI = Toyota 22RE with GM ECM?

[dave w]

redrill the trigger wheel to suit 10 degrees base timing.if you put a timing light on it and find out what timing its at now should be able to work out where the holes need to be to get 10 degrees

I designed the trigger wheel with mounting holes @ 15 degrees increments. Moving to one set of mounting holes clockwise / counter clockwise will add / subtract 15 degrees.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Increasing the CKP gap by .020 made all plugs fire and even made the motor try and start... but to much timing, it was kicking back. So reduced by 15* do to bolt hole configuration and it does start but runs like only half cylinders. Timing with bypass disconnected is 15* now, so it must have been 30* before the trigger wheel change.

Couple pics of DIS mounted and trigger wheel at TDC. Is this even close to right? Or am I running on half cylinders becasue it's 180 out and the wasted spark is working firing?

[1project2many]

You're not 180 out. 180 out changes which coil fires. You're about 30 advanced right now. Is the mark on the outside of the trigger wheel where the sensor lined up before you moved the wheel?

You're at TDC #1/4 so put notch #5 under the sensor. Notch 5 is always under the sensor when pistons 1 and 4 are at TDC.

Interesting note, though. I just noticed this old GM manual says the unused terminal is 6x, not 1x. Hope that doesn't create issues. <sigh>

[EagleMark]

You're not 180 out. 180 out changes which coil fires. You're about 30 advanced right now. Is the mark on the outside of the trigger wheel where the sensor lined up before you moved the wheel?

No.

You're at TDC #1/4 so put notch #5 under the sensor. Notch 5 is always under the sensor when pistons 1 and 4 are at TDC.

That's exactly where it was!

To much timing to crank, so I moved the crank wheel 15 degrees and it fired up... but only on couple cylinders. Timing was about 15* BTDC. But I think I found why? The bin I'm using is 74.88 Spark Reference Angle and we used 60 because of the Cavilier DIS was set to 60*. We also found out that Quad 4 had bins with both as they changed crankshafts.

So if I put this back to where I had it set perfectly, change Spark Reference Angle to 60* I should start. Then the missing cylinders could still be a faulty ICM...?

Interesting note, though. I just noticed this old GM manual says the unused terminal is 6x, not 1x. Hope that doesn't create issues. <sigh>

Or the missing cylinders could be this?

So it's back to trying without the 1x signal With the other issues straightened out maybe Roberts Ignore 1x signal will work?

But the PDF of 95 S10 shows pin B wire DarkGrn/White to be 1x... the ICM part number is also the same as the 87-91 2.x Cavalier... could be a difference in code in 95 S10...

[Six_Shooter]

Forget getting the ECM to fine tune the timing. get the engine running on base timing first, this is paramount, this sets the basis for everything else to be in sync and timed well.

The engine should start and run, with the bypass wire disconnected, regardless of what the bin settings are for initial timing.

[delcowizzid]

firing order of the leads wrong will make it fire 2 but not the other 2

[1project2many]

BIN/ECM is out of the picture as long as Bypass is disconnected. Good that you found mismatched reference angle but I'm with Six_shooter on this one. Leave bypass disconnected at least until engine will start and run. Wierd things are happening.

To much timing to crank, so I moved the crank wheel 15 degrees and it fired up... but only on couple cylinders. Timing was about 15* BTDC.

The ICM can provide spark advance if it thinks engine rpm is high enough and bypass is disconnected. 15-18 degrees sounds right. Engine rpm may have to be above 1800 - 2500 for this to happen. But why would it think engine rpm is that high if engine is not spinning that fast? Noise on CKS wire?

Delcowizzid brings up a good point about wires. If a wire from the 1/4 coil got swapped with a wire from the 2/3 coil you'd get 1/2 cylinders firing. Were you just listening to engine when it ran on 1/2? Check spark? Do you know about using vacuum hose to check for spark? One end of hose on coil, other end in plug wire. Then touch grounded test light to hose to see if cylinder dies. You'll get bonus of seeing spark jump from hose so you know coil can make spark.

[EagleMark]

firing order of the leads wrong will make it fire 2 but not the other 2

Maybe I've double checked these 100 times wrong? I have them from number on coil to same number cylinder!

[EagleMark]

BIN/ECM is out of the picture as long as Bypass is disconnected. Good that you found mismatched reference angle but I'm with Six_shooter on this one. Leave bypass disconnected at least until engine will start and run. Wierd things are happening.

Agreed a while back and bypass has been disconnected since. I did not realize the Spark Reference angle is moot point with bypass disconnected.

The ICM can provide spark advance if it thinks engine rpm is high enough and bypass is disconnected. 15-18 degrees sounds right. Engine rpm may have to be above 1800 - 2500 for this to happen. But why would it think engine rpm is that high if engine is not spinning that fast? Noise on CKS wire?

Well it's the only signal on O scope I get that is steady during cranking for as long as I want. So I never thought of noise?

The crank Sensor wires have the ground from ICM down about 6 inches, but none of the tin foil shielding. It is in it's own convoluted tubing the entire distance from ICM to CKS. The wires are same purple and yellow that came from Crank Sensor wiring. They do have one solder joint in each which are separated by a couple inches and double shrink wrapped. The closest the wires come to coil or coil wires is where Crank sensor plugs into ICM, then head away.

Should I add a sheild around wires to the, what looks like stainless steel wire ground coming from ICM? What material?

Delcowizzid brings up a good point about wires. If a wire from the 1/4 coil got swapped with a wire from the 2/3 coil you'd get 1/2 cylinders firing. Were you just listening to engine when it ran on 1/2? Check spark? Do you know about using vacuum hose to check for spark? One end of hose on coil, other end in plug wire. Then touch grounded test light to hose to see if cylinder dies. You'll get bonus of seeing spark jump from hose so you know coil can make spark.

I do know that procedure but not applied it as engine is not running, have to keep cranked to run, dead, run, dead, like vroom, crank, vroom crank. But will give it a shot today.

Back to firing order, the coils are marked 1-4 on coil in from, 2-3 coil in rear. Wires are from 1 to cyl 1, 2 to cyl 2, 3 to cyl 3, 4 to cylinder 4. Toyota has same firing order as chevy at 1342.

[1project2many]

Maybe I've double checked these 100 times wrong? I have them from number on coil to same number cylinder!

Sorry, Mark. I've never run into this much trouble setting one up either. And not being there...well, I'm sure once you figure this out it will be something silly but I'm flying blind so that means asking stupid questions.

Plus, between two different threads and individual conversations, I don't always remember what's been done or checked.

I do know that procedure but not applied it as engine is not running, have to keep cranked to run, dead, run, dead, like vroom, crank, vroom crank. But will give it a shot today.

Wait! Is this like turning the key off and on, off an on?? Now we're into something different, I think. If bypass is disconnected and spark is consistent, issue is either calibration cutting fuel or ??? You pulled ALL Toyota relays out, right? EFI pump is definitely not using OEM relay? Maybe we need to see if 1X disable is working or if it affects other code? Do you have a power steering pressure switch installed?

[EagleMark]

All is well! Glad your still helping!

"have to keep cranked to run, dead, run, dead, like vroom, crank, vroom crank" is all while in crank position with bypass disconnected. Yes I have checked all key on, to crank, to key on power is steady. Actually it's all wired from Toyota harness wire that fed igniter to one relay that turns on power to all relays. All relays have own power source from distribution block, none show any signs of low voltage when cranking.

Fuel pump relay comes on 2 seconds at key on. CEL blinks once. Fuel pump comes on again at crank.

There is nothing Toyota in this system.

I do not have PS pressure installed.

I am getting a 1X signal error... shop is warmed up so going to try for spark on all cylinders with vacuum hose, the 1X signal ignore again... then maybe disconnect the 1x wire from ICM module?

[1project2many]

I know I keep saying it but Toyota wiring is some crazy, backward thinking. Relays to turn on relays... relays that need two coils for activation during cranking and running, relays that are wired to ground and need power applied on same circuit as relays wired to power and need ground applied... crazy thinking there. If that mess is all gone then I won't ask again.

1X signal error hopefully tells full story. If removing 1X wire causes no start, maybe need to investigate further 6X or 1X in documentation. I think you said 1X pulses didn't match picture from Q4 engine so maybe that's a clue.

If scope signal for crank sensor is consistent and clean, noise isn't the issue. Shield might be good but probably not necessary.

Did you end up with a cold start injector in that manifold? Did you disable it?

I'm going to look back at 1X ignore info.

[EagleMark]

[QUOTE=1project2many;33529]You're at TDC #1/4 so put notch #5 under the sensor. Notch 5 is always under the sensor when pistons 1 and 4 are at TDC./QUOTE]I know I said that is the way it was... but when I went to return it to that position it was not? I followed your directions earlier in thread and sensor lined up with number 1 slot?

Now that it is very close to number 5 spot, guess what? It runs!

Bypass disconnected still and have not tried anything else. Timing is about 20* BTDC... where should it be? I may have to move this Crank Sensor. And when I do should I shoot for falling edge or rising edge?

[EagleMark]

Recovering from the near heart attack/adreniline rush I did not need!!!

Key is on and I have been using a starter button to starter. So I'm sitting in my shop rolling chair which puts me about eye ball to crank. Truck starts and starts to rev higher and higher. Seems the popping before had blown off a vacuum hose cap... 1/2 inch type! So I go to stand up, chair rolls and hits joint in concrete floor and almost fall over backwards into gas stove before it rolls, now falling I reach out and only thing I can grab is gas stove? So I push and hit the wall/door jam to shop and am falling between wall and HOT gas stove... get my other leg to push me falling into shop instead and wall saves me and I stand up to go and turn key off. Motor was only reving about 2500 RPM with open exhaust...

I hear my wife in house going WOOOO HOOOO!!! I guess she is happy truck is running but unaware I almost fell and would have surely hurt my back, or burned my arm on stove, or am still dying of adreniline produced heart attack...

Fixed vacuum leak and opened throttle blade a little and it idles fairly well for a stock chip and no IAC plumbed yet...

[EagleMark]

Did you end up with a cold start injector in that manifold? Did you disable it?

I'm going to look back at 1X ignore info.

No cold start injector, it is now a IAT!