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Thread: Geartrain noise in 4L60E second gear causing "knock" retard

  1. #31
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    And you can't hear a noise of feel a vibration in second gear?

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    And you can't hear a noise of feel a vibration in second gear?

    It does have a slight whine/vibration that is most noticeable in 2nd gear.

  3. #33
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    As a few may know, I nuked first gear in the 60E on wednesday. Not having built my 4L80E core yet, I picked up a 97K mile used 4L80E from a 2002 Express G2500 with a 4.3 for $625.00 with a 6 month warranty.



    Last edited by Fast355; 08-10-2013 at 08:55 AM.

  4. #34
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    Dang, $625 seems high even with the warranty, but they are a little tough to find.

    After thinking about my post way back about just building a good 4L60E I realized that I hadn't taken into account what you drive and what you use it for. Having something that big and heavy and towing with it does make swapping in a 4L80E the better choice. That brings me to a good point, though. Most people don't understand the way that a transmission's rating is calculated. It isn't just horsepower that is taken into account. Actually, horsepower isn't taken into account, torque is. But torque is just part of the equation, gross vehicle weight is the other part. Lets say you have a 500 horsepower engine for example. If it's in a 2500lb car it still isn't going to place the same strain on the drivetrain as if that same engine were in a 5000lb van. Then add the towing weight on top of that and you have more strain with the same engine. That's how GM rates their transmissions and that is why you can have a 180hp 4.3 in a van and they put a 4L80E behind it, but you can have a 400hp 6.0 in a vette with a 4L65E behind it.

    My point is, the 4L60 variants are more than capable and adequate for performance use and are often underestimated. But, it your particular case Fast355, you were right that a 4L80E is much better suited for your application. Good luck and I hope that the swap goes smoothly.
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    Glad we agree! Not to mention the 4L80E has much better gear spacing than the 4L60e for accelerating something heavy. I am thinking of dropping to 4.30 gears with my 29" tall tires. I guess I should mention my accelerator gets used as an on/off switch quite often so I have a feeling I will be much happier with the 80E. Having a passing gear at 70 mph might be fun.

    They wanted $1000 on ebay for similar units and $600-$800 on craigslist. Found a whole running 5.7 with accessories and trans from an 02 van with 80k for $850 but the seller would not pallet or ship from Mesa, AZ.
    Last edited by Fast355; 08-11-2013 at 08:08 AM.

  6. #36
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    yeah, 4L60 gear ratios are pretty much equal to the 4T60 gear ratios in term of crappy. the 1-2 shift always kills me, WAY too much RPM drop.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  7. #37
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    the biggest trouble i have with 4l60 and 60e is shifting to 3rd under high boost they just seem to refuse to change under heavy torque load

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    Quote Originally Posted by delcowizzid View Post
    the biggest trouble i have with 4l60 and 60e is shifting to 3rd under high boost they just seem to refuse to change under heavy torque load
    I cannot keep a 60e in one piece. They either don't have enough line pressure and smoke clutches or hard parts break. This is about the 7th one I have killed.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcowizzid
    the biggest trouble i have with 4l60 and 60e is shifting to 3rd under high boost they just seem to refuse to change under heavy torque load
    With the 700-R4/4L60 I have experienced issues with WOT 2-3 shifts (or a lack of them rather) because the throttle valve in the valve body will hang due to weak spring pressure and wear. I believe there are also a couple of other hydraulic issues that will cause this, but with a well built unit with the proper valve body components I have seen them work just fine behind big hp motors. You also have the governor and an encapsulated ball that can hang up and cause issues with shifting. I haven't really messed with many 700's behind highly modified engines and none behind a boosted engine, but power is power. I also haven't seen this problem in a 4L60E and thought that it was confined to the mechanically operated variants. There have, however, been many changes made to the 4L60E and it's later variants and most of those changes were in the valve body area. I've worked on far more later versions than earlier versions, so perhaps this is an issue that was more prevalent in the earlier versions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355
    I cannot keep a 60e in one piece. They either don't have enough line pressure and smoke clutches or hard parts break. This is about the 7th one I have killed.
    This is what I was talking about is that you are exceeding the torque capacity of many of the components of the trans and that is why you can find a 4L80E behind a dinky 4.3 in the express vans. You could technically build a 4L60E that could handle the abuse, but it would easily cost $2k to do so. That is why in your case I agree that upgrading to a 4L80E is the better choice. You have a 5000lb+ van that you also tow with and have an engine that produces excellent torque so the increase in weight and power required to operate the 4L80E are insignificant. BUT, in many cases people are throwing a 4L80E into a CAR that takes more power to operate and adds weight to the vehicle simply because they lack the knowledge to properly build and/or cannot obtain a properly built 4L60 variant. In cases where you have a street rod or a street/strip car, you wouldn't want to make it heavier or purposely add more parasitic drag on the engine which is what installing the 4L80E will do. This is essentially the same as the age-old th350 vs. th400 argument in a couple different ways. First, the 4L60/E and the 4L80E are directly derived from the th350 and th400 respectively and share some of the weaknesses and strengths as well as some parts and special tools. For example, the center support lugs around the snap ring in the 4L60 variants are prone to breakage and are well known problem areas. This is in fact a problem that is not only carried over from the th350, but the same exact fix and even part number that was engineered for the th350, a bolt in center support, works in the 4L60 variants. Neither the 4L80E nor the th400 had this issue due to the design of this area. The 4L80E actually carries over the same exact gear ratios just adding the overdrive gear in 4th, but unfortunately the 4L60 got different ratios to help the pathetic 150hp V8's of the era get heavier vehicles going during the time-period it was originally developed. Then you get back to the issue of the th400 being heavier and taking more power to operate than the th350, which carries over to the 4L60/E vs. 4L80E argument. Now, because of the simplicity of the th350 and the amount of parts engineered for serious hp applications and more people will argue on behalf of the th350 than those that would for the 4L60/E. But, the 4L60 variants do have a place in the market and do have some advantages over the 4L80E, it just depends on the application, skills, and budget of the owner.

    On a side note I did have some other comments to make.
    While searching for good aftermarket parts to rebuild the mother-in-law's 4T65E, I found that geartrain noise in them actually will cause false KR and it is common for people to install a sheet of dynomat on the side of the trans that runs alongside the engine and around the knock sensor on that side of the engine. Now, obviously with these transmissions, noise is going to reach the knock sensors a lot easier because the knock sensor is within a couple of inches of the geartrain in a nearly enclosed environment that doesn't give the noise anywhere to go. But, it does demonstrate how noise from the trans can cause KR issues. I had a similar issue with my Nissan 240sx where the mainshaft bearings in the trans (5 speed manual) were problematic and would develop pitting in the races and roar. This roar was audible in neutral with the clutch out it was so loud and it would transmit back through to the block and trigger KR while driving.

    Also, if you really want a transmission that's bulletproof and has good gear ratios then the 6L80E/90E is where it's at. That is, is you've got the big bucks to fork over for one. They are truly badass transmisssions and people are putting them behind 1000+hp engines with practically no internal modifications. I've worked on a basically stock LS2 powered C6 Vette that had nothing more than a cold air intake and a performance tune done at a local performance shop and it broke the rear wheels loose on the 2-3 shift at somewhere around 80mph. Talk about leaving skidmarks..........in my shorts ! The power was nothing new as a bone stock LS2 is rated at 400hp and this one was in LS3 territory at around 430hp which is nice, but not super special these days and I was used to driving Vettes and souped up Camaros that regularly put out over 500hp. But, to have a basically stock automatic trans car cock sideways when upshifting at 80mph is definitely an adrenaline rush, especially if you're not expecting it. Back to the transmissions though, other than requiring specific electronics to function and the cost of acquiring one, they're an excellent candidate for high torque-load applications. Another feature that I like about them that is actually in the controller programming is using tow/haul mode in the trucks. Unlike the 4L60E variants that had tow/haul mode, the trucks equipped with the 6L80E truly benefit from using tow/haul mode when pulling something heavy. The upshifts are easily noticeable as being at a higher RPM and firmer, but it's when you step on the brakes that you'll be surprised. They will downshift quite aggressively when braking to provide a very generous amount of engine braking to aid in stopping and if you're not prepared it'll definitely get your attention. Like I said, this feature is mainly in the controller programming. But, since they have 6 gears, they can continue downshifting and provide much more consistent engine braking than a 4 speed. With a 4 speed, the gear ratios are spaced farther apart and you have to slow down so much before being able to downshift into the next gear. So, you'll get lower in the RPM range and lose some engine braking before downshifting to the next gear and then you get another big surge of engine braking. They also aren't particularly heavy for their size and torque capacity and have extremely little issues. As a matter of fact, from the time that I began working around them in 2007 until I left Chevrolet last summer, I have never seen a mechanical failure in one personally and have only had to replace faulty controller/solenoid packs on the early models that had some issues.

    Just my 2 cents.
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  10. #40
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    seems like more than 2 cents there.

    i think the idea behind using a 4L80 over a 60 is just because you can buy one, drop it in, setup the calibration and not have to mess with anything else and it will survive behind most any street-driven engine.

    i'm also quite excited about the 6L and 6T transmissions these days.... they're not overly complicated to control if you remove the TCM(or somehow are able to interact with it), which is great news for me and my 1227730 based transmission controller.
    Last edited by RobertISaar; 08-23-2013 at 09:35 PM.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertISaar View Post
    seems like more than 2 cents there.
    Yeah at least a buck and a half?

    4l60E is fine till you put strain on it like adding HP. 4l80E in stock form will handle it.

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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmkls1 View Post

    Just my 2 cents.
    After all that I think I may be worthwhile to charge instead offering. LMAO
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  13. #43
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    I'm wondering if there are differences in 4L80E trans from a 4.3L compared to 5.7L or 7.4L? Or are they all internally the same?

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  14. #44
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    likely some differences. would need to see if the transmission tags are the same. if not, something changed, even if it is something tiny.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


  15. #45
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    Lol, I guess that was a lot more than 2 cents.

    Yes, the easiest and probably cheapest solution for heavy duty applications is swapping out the 4L60E for a 4L80E, and that is why it is popular. And, the gear spacing is much better on the 4L80E for sure. For somebody that is building a high-dollar 4L60 variant, there is a company that makes a custom front planetary set that changes the 1st and 2nd gear ratios to much closer spacing. They are fairly expensive and are only going to be found in more exotic builds, but they do solve the problem and are even stronger than the later oem 5-pinion planetary sets.

    Regarding controlling the 6L and 6T variants, in all of the 6L's and 6T's along with the 2ML70 (2 mode hybrid truck trans) the TCM is part of the solenoid pack assembly and is internal to the transmission (many actually share common part numbers). The issue with the modules isn't wiring them up per se, but the type of communication protocol they use. These modules use GM high speed LAN communications which is a twisted pair with 2 terminating resistors at either end of the circuit. Usually, one resistor is external and the other is inside of one of the modules. IIRC the resistors were 120K ohms each. With GM LAN systems, there is a high speed and low speed network with the BCM being the gateway module for communications, the power-moding module for all other modules, and also the only module being on both networks. All critical modules like the PCM, TCM, EBCM, SDM, etc... use the high speed LAN. Whereas, non critical modules like door modules, seat modules, radios, HVAC, etc..... use low speed LAN. Technically, it doesn't matter how many and which modules are on the high speed LAN network as long as the terminating resistors are there as well as the BCM since it controls the power mode of all other modules and it is how the scan tool communicates with the network. So, unless someone has engineered some sort of interface module for the TCM to communicate with an older style ECM and the scan tool, sticking one of these puppies in an older vehicle would be quite complex. But who knows, there may already be solutions out there. I just haven't had any experience with someone transplanting one of these transmissions.

    As far as internal differences in something like a 4L80E with varying engine combos, I don't know of any. But, if there are any differences they would mainly be in the valvetrain inside the valve body and maybe accumulator springs. The clutch stacks and hard parts are all the same. The 4L60 variants had minor valvetrain differences based on application and used different accumulator springs and 2nd gear servos. There were also several different 3-4 clutch pack setups over the years as well, but this was more of a time progression than application specific change. And, of course, the torque converter is application specific on all of them. If you want a "po-boy" high stall converter, go with one that was used with a smaller engine and you'll get slightly higher stall speed.
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