Tuning with 8F

[fasteddi]

Some of you know that Ive been running $59 for a good year on my car. I decided to go $8F insted. Main reason why... the resolution of $59 is wicket for a beginner like me. Also my days of cranking the boost to the moon are behind me. So using a 2 bar map with $8F is more then enough. And to be honest im all for trying something different. If it doesnt go well then ill go back to $59 although I plan to go megasquirt in the next 6 months or so If i can afford it.

Im working the adx right now as I only could find the most basic one there is. Does anyone have a datalogg xdl for $8f so that I could load it and see if some things work correctly???

Im awaiting a 2 bar map right now so I wanted to get a jump on organizing that dash, data history tables, and data monitors. But I also want to make sure the adx works right.

Thanks fellas for any help.

[Six_Shooter]

Resolution is NOT a problem using a 3 BAR MAP sensor!

IDGAF what people are telling you on that other site, $59 is JUST fine, you need to set the injector voltage compensation table properly, until you do this, you will have problems with any code you run. There have been many discussions about resolution loss using a 3 BAR MAP vs a 2 BAR MAP and the difference is so small, you will NOT notice it. Look for these discussion in the DIY PROM forum, and on $59. IIRC, there are 255 steps in the ADC logic for converting the MAP voltage to values within the ECM, this equates to .157 PSI per step, using a 3 BAR MAP sensor and .118 PSIG per step using a 2 BAR MAP sensor. That's a difference of .039 PSIG per step. If you REALLY believe that that little difference is going to make a hill of beans of difference, by all means, switch to a 2 BAR MAP sensor, and a different code, but there are reasons why people don't use $8F as a base for tuning.

Just go MS, you're only going to continue to have problems unless you choose to tune the thing correctly.

[fasteddi]

Resolution is NOT a problem using a 3 BAR MAP sensor!

IDGAF what people are telling you on that other site, $59 is JUST fine, you need to set the injector voltage compensation table properly, until you do this, you will have problems with any code you run. There have been many discussions about resolution loss using a 3 BAR MAP vs a 2 BAR MAP and the difference is so small, you will NOT notice it. Look for these discussion in the DIY PROM forum, and on $59. IIRC, there are 255 steps in the ADC logic for converting the MAP voltage to values within the ECM, this equates to .157 PSI per step, using a 3 BAR MAP sensor and .118 PSIG per step using a 2 BAR MAP sensor. That's a difference of .039 PSIG per step. If you REALLY believe that that little difference is going to make a hill of beans of difference, by all means, switch to a 2 BAR MAP sensor, and a different code, but there are reasons why people don't use $8F as a base for tuning.

Just go MS, you're only going to continue to have problems unless you choose to tune the thing correctly.

If its not $59 then tell me why I loaded in the $88 last night and it all I changed was using the 1 bar, my offsets, and the base 48 injec lbs/hr.. it idled like normal. Never surged or stumbled for 10 minuets of reving letting it sit and relax. I even tried it again after work today and it works fine. I have got to try a different mask to entertain this conclusion. Its not like it cost any money. I have a friends 7730 on the way also to entertain the idea of a flacky ecm. Im a newbie and I know you are very $59 knowledgable which I respect. But your ideas are wrong with my specific car.

Back to topic. Is there anyone that has a xdl please? If not i understand.

[Six_Shooter]

My ideas are not wrong. My ideas are sound, and have been proven on MANY vehicles running $59 that had similar issues, that's where I got the idea from, reading through threads on $59 and DIY PROM.

You just choose not to believe me.

You CAN NOT replace a MAP sensor AND code and say that the MAP sensor, or the resolution, thereof is the issue, this is not scientific testing.

Unfortunately, I don't believe the 1 BAR MAP sensor code is completely updated in $59, so I can't suggest trying that with any certainty.

The problem is not the MAP sensor, the problem is not the code, the problem is that you listen to people who have not tuned a vehicle using it, and they send you on wild goose chases, changing things that are not going to resolve any of your issue.

You haven't ever provided clear instructions on what you've tried to do to fix your idle issue, just "Oh I changed XX", here's a datalog... Meaning you mention that you change something, only sometimes do you provide a value, but never have I seen where you indicate every step that you have tried, or provided any sort of reproducible steps, that can be followed. Looking at a datalog means (nearly) squat, without sitting in a car. Sure we can see some values, but they provide part of the story. I KNOW you're not using the injector compensation vs battery table correctly, due to the values you posted in that thread. I know you want to believe that you can tune idle in a few hours without an emulator, but it's just NOT going to happen. It will takes MONTHS to tune idle to be glass smooth without an emulator, especially when you have values so out of whack. I'm sure there's a few other things I've mentioned that you've likely ignored, like AE and DFCO parameters that can help smooth idle.

I know you don't want to hear this, but $8F is terrible, and if you don't have idle issues, you're going to have tuning issues for conditions other than idle. The tuning concept is very different, and uses multipliers that get confusing, and have LESS resolution for areas above 100 KPA than you do now. Have you looked at the main VE table in $8F (or even $58), they are 1 BAR VE, that use a single multiplier above 100 KPA, that is in theory supposed to proved a proper amount of fuel while in boost, it doesn't, it's either too rich or too lean, and you have to live with too rich, because it's the safer way to go.

Like I said, just go MS, then you'll have thousands of people to help you along, and probably even give you a working file to run your car with. MS has single VE tables, that use a very basic fueling formula, that will allow you to get a glass smooth idle, and then live with the lack of resolution everywhere else. Have you looked at the tables in MS? 12x12 or 16x16, and you're complaining about $59?

[fasteddi]

All I can say is that $88 works and $59 doesnt as of now. Ive tried base tunes and all and no go. Its either corrupt or I just messed it up somewhere along the line.

This car idled like glass for a long time. Then last fallish it got worse and this winter its just horrible and innoying. I cant post every little thing i change let alone i know no one would look at it anyways becase its just fueling for WOT and boost. Thats all I ever messed with. I only had to drive it to the race track and back so once I got it to 14afr on part throttle i just left it as that. Never messed with anything short of WOT till now because of the innoying surge every 15 seconds or so. MS would be nice but cost $$ too much right now. And the obd2 I have on my GTP engine is so much easier that I find myself working efi live more then tunerpro anymore because im hitting a flustration point.

Ive had about a solid 3 ppl arguing there tails off on TGO. And I dont want to start that up on here. I do know that 8F is not as good of a code. But for the time and effort its worth the shot to see if it idles right. If it doesnt(which you know your stuff so im probly wrong) then ill go back to square one. I just know that the $88 worked like a charm. That was the evidence that I needed. If files can become corrupt then its my fault. There is so many little things on the base file that im still finding that i need to enable for $59. It took me a year just to learn that the idle timing sa/retard was off. Im a newbie and you all know that.

How can AE help idle out? Stuff like that makes my mind smoke in confusion as AE is not active at hot idle. DFCO I either didnt listen to you or never saw it because thats new to me also.

[Six_Shooter]

AE and DFCO, will not "help" idle, but can be causes of a poor idle.

AE most certainly is enabled, and active at idle. ;) There's also AE adders/multipliers based IAC logic, and a bunch of other things.

So, you didn't have idle SA logic enabled, it idled smooth, and now while it is enabled it doesn't idle smooth, does that not tell you something?

The other thing to consider is that hey, maybe, just maybe it's not a tuning issue at all, and that something else has changed.
If the car ran properly, then nothing was changed in the tune, and it stopped running so smooth, then it can't be the tune. It would have to be an external issue, like a mechanical issue (I know you've been changing a bunch of parts mechanically), or an environmental issue...

I'll let you in on a little bit of advice, don't ask for people to bring information to you, go and search it out yourself.

Do you honestly think I haven't spent hours on end search the internet and reading just about anything I can find (on any subject I need to)?

Read through threads on code$59, DIY-PROM forum on TGO, posting in the V6 forum about a tuning issue is like going to a whore house for marital advice, sure, many of the same acts are done in a whore house as a marriage, but the whore house occupants can only give you general or incorrect advice. Search the internet on other forums (about tuning) that may use different hardware/software, you may get some ideas that way.

Yes, a person can post about all of the changes they have tried, it's not hard, especially with Tuner Pro logging the changes you make automatically.

[34blazer]

1.)Then last fallish it got worse and this winter its just horrible and innoying.

2.)I cant post every little thing i change.

3.)It took me a year just to learn that the idle timing sa/retard was off.

4.)How can AE help idle out? Stuff like that makes my mind smoke in confusion as AE is not active at hot idle. DFCO I either didnt listen to you or never saw it because thats new to me also.

1.)when the ambient temps cooled off in the fall im sure the rolling idle issue started right there

2.)you can view and post all the changes you've made to the bin, a .txt doc is saved everytime you save your changes to the bin. it should be located in the same folder as the bin

3.)BINGO!!! ignition timing fine tunes the idle, lack of *advance/retard means the ecm cannot compensate enough for variations and then forces the IAC to compensate. due to the logic the IAC movement over compensates and leads to rolling idle/stalling. the IAC should be static at the set idle rpm

4.)AE at idle can make a difference, if the IAC moves it will add AE causing a rich condition, probably leading to a stall. when i was having all my idle issues i zero'd out Map AE in the lower map variations area and seemed to help. once i figure out how much those ign idle error tables affect the idle, everything was returned to where it was before(AE and some other stuff).

one last ditch effort could be to copy values from matching tables, from $88. for IAC and everything that affects idle. might be difficult due to different labeling between the masks/binarys? I used AXXD(manual trans) values for my IAC stuff and it helped since my car has the T5

before anyone flames me for not having direct experience with $59, i truly believe it uses the same idle logic, or very similar as AUJP. last i recall, Mark, you only messed with those tables very little. also, when i switched over to 42# injectors, i didnt have(at the time) a suitable datasheet for the voltage compensation. i only zero'd out the low PW offset table. the voltage comp table was not adjusted, only problem was when the fan kicked on and the headlights were on(weak 2g alt lol) voltage would drop and the engine would lean out. idle remained rock solid even at 16-17:1 AFR. when the temps dropped to 10*F about a month ago, the cold start idle would fluctuate and adding a couple more degrees of timing to the error tables cleared it right up.

HTH and /hijack

good luck to ya!

[EagleMark]

Read through threads on code$59, DIY-PROM forum on TGO, posting in the V6 forum about a tuning issue is like going to a whore house for marital advice, sure, many of the same acts are done in a whore house as a marriage, but the whore house occupants can only give you general or incorrect advice. Search the internet on other forums (about tuning) that may use different hardware/software, you may get some ideas that way.

Then come here and we will figure out the right way!

[Six_Shooter]

Then come here and we will figure out the right way!

Evidently that doesn't seem to have worked in this case...

[RobertISaar]

one last ditch effort could be to copy values from matching tables, from $88. for IAC and everything that affects idle. might be difficult due to different labeling between the masks/binarys?

time consuming, but doable. i have documented and standardized every byte in $88 to match $A1 for the purpose of "importing" calibrations that weren't present in A1(like the 90-92 3.1 iron-head F-bodies). 8F can be done as well.... i think i have most of it done already though.

[EagleMark]

You just need a bigger turbo!

[Playtoy_18]

Sure not liking this thread lol.
I'm finishing up a TGP shortblock with 3400 heads/intake and .468 lift.
I planned on using the stock 7727 and $8f.
I am very close to making a final decision on exactly what i'll be using.
I'm finishing up a cam driven CMP "prototype" that will hopefully drop right in (then i'll use OBDII).
But not banking on it.
I had decided against the custom $59 code the sy/ty guys were using at the beginning but can't remember reasoning (probrably simplicity).
I'll only be running about 15psi max,but the engine is temporary till we finish a high hp/high compression/high boost 3500 build.
Then the harness and OS should be worked out and it will stay with new engine.

Should I go back to considering $59?
The build sheet and calculations for new build aren't finished yet,but it will likely exceed the capabilities of the 2bar map.

Sorry to threadjack,but if $8f is the wrong choice i'd love to know it now.
Prob start stripping the harness this week,only thing needed to finish build is an intake manifold,build headers,and a few turns of torque wrench.
I am OBDI illiterate,love my OBDII though.

[fasteddi]

1. AE is not active/required durring idle on my datalogs.

2. Six shooter I didnt have the SA logic, idle compinsation active but when I disable it it does not help the issue. It runs the same.

3. Yes Joe you were on target that when it got colder it started to run worse. I remember I enabled the SA logic. It did help the surge for a bit for a short amount of time.

4. Six I did change out alot of parts and looked the car over for a bit to see if there was a mechanical fault. Now I've switched them all back to the original parts. I went over vacuum leaks for hours. Propane tourch, soapy water, and even a long hose listining for hissing. I went over all the ignition items. Also fuel pressure and ohmed the injectors out.

Joe you bring up a good point about the IAC steps. It seems to me that its literly moving too slow or mabey it too fast. Im not sure which way it isnt in sync with the rest of the operations. There is about 30 scalers for the IAC on $59 which are confusing so I need to read up on those and see what each one means. When it goes into its stumble it generaly only moves

Im going to get to the bottom of this somehow even if i tear all of my hair out in the process.

Currently im reading up on quasi and what that does and also what effects do the F56/57 tables play. As ive always said the idle is rock solid till it warms up then all hats are out the window. Its in OL never CL so im not even sure if F56/57 are involved in open loop. Still lots to learn. But quasi is always active, and a learn control is active and soon as it saves itself from the surge. Then is disabled afterwards till the next surge. I have no concept of what lean control is and what it entails.

[EagleMark]

fasteddi, I can't beleive this is the same guy who was here a year or so ago!

Here's some things I've seen in this thread.

you need to set the injector voltage compensation table properly, until you do this, you will have problems with any code you run.

He knows soething is wrong, from somewhere else? If your compesations are off it will get way worse with surge as voltage changes. Watch voltage when surging! It's not steady making things worse!

If there's 30 IAC tables how many have you changed? What I'm getting at is use your Compare featuer in TunerPro and a stock bin against yours and see what is off?

If you are suspecting IAC slow or wrong, check IAC and wiring. I've also run into a few IAC that were bad this last year or so and they test fine. It's a stepper motor and the gear was wore out, stripping!

Learn Enabled is when system is in Closed Loop and BLM learn is active, INT/STFT is a fast adjustment and saves data when Learn is enabled to BLM/LTFT. The BLM/LTFT is an average and helps control Closed Loop fueling. Look at your BLM tables, MAP and RPM, sometimes they are so close together you get BLM/LTFT learn data in Idle and off idle so it's wrong and fueling is making big changes to compenstae.

Quasi Closed Loop is a Closed Loop fueling stratedgy that can, if set right, change AFR. It also disables BLM/LTFT! Not sure if this is causing idle issue or result of idle issue.

The reason $88 works better then $58 is probably no Quasi Closed Loop available in $88.

Hope that helps you towards your issue.

[EagleMark]

If you have a TunerPro XDL file I'll look at it? Also need your ADX, code $59 won't let me get one, keeps saying I need to be signed in but I am signed in...