Chips in a OBDII PCM?

[EagleMark]

Ultimately, if someone really wanted to, the flash chip could be de-soldered from the circuit board and flashed with a new file and re-soldered back to the circuit board.
dave w

External Zif socket...

[dave w]

External Zif socket...

Maybe, the pic below is for a 100 pin ZIF socket. I don't know how many pins would be required for a flash chip, but I'm guessing something on the order of 100 pins is very probable? Actually something like the Moates.net Roadrunner is most likely the path forward for many furture DIY Tuners.

dave w

[EagleMark]

I'm not sure how to do it but heard Dimented24x7 mention that is what he is doing.

RoadRunner and TunerPro RT is the unrestricted future. Craig Moates has told me it will run any system with bin work, it has run more then a LS1 PCM already. Now if Robert Saar nAsty1 is being set to run any engine.... so all anyone will need is a nAsty1 RoadRunner and TunerPro RT!

[RobertISaar]

the roadrunner is BASICALLY a LS1 PCM with a permanantly installed emulator.... and since a lot of the GM OBD2 PCMs(ones based on the 68332 processor anyways) are nearly identical, it's not really surprising if it could be moved to other PCMs easily or even using non-native BINs in the LS1 PCM.

FWIW: an 8-bit, 512KB flash PROM(like what would be found in a LS1 PCM) would require 20 address lines, 8 data lines and a couple of other pins for +5V, ground, chip select, output enable, read/write.... in the end, a little more than 30 pins required. if you can solder PLCC stuff, it's no problem at all.

[RobertISaar]

actually, new info, and i should have known, but it's actually a 16 bit PROM... so 16 + 20 + etc = TSOP44 package. the space between the centerlines of the legs on the PROM is .8mm.... i'd like to think i'm damn good with a soldering iron, but that's tiny... doing that without a hot-air solution or otherwise fully computer controlled would be quite difficult.

[dave w]

There are companies like; QPL http://www.qplpcba.com/default.cfm that have PCB rework capability for IC's like an '0411 flash chip. Several years ago when I was doing the PCB failure analysis for Planar Systems in Hillsboro Or, QPL assembled and re-worked Printed Circuit Boards for Planar Systems. If there was enough interest, I would think QPL would be willing to install flash chip zif sockets to a small volume of automotive Printed Circuit Boards. The challenge I see with an '0411 PCM is having enough clearance in the computer case for the zif socket?

I'll also comment, the Moates.net Burn2 is not capable of reflashing the flash chip used in an '0411 PCM. A chip programmer similar to the ones offered by BX http://www.batronix.com/shop/program...ogrammers.html would be required along with the required chip adapter http://www.batronix.com/shop/adapter/index.html

I'm still thinking if / when restrictions for OBDII tuning happen, there will be ways to still continue on with OBDII tuning.

dave w

[mekkis]

External Zif socket...

Bad idea. I have PSOP44 and TSOP44 ZIF adapters for fiddling with GM and VAG/euro, among others. You have to clean the lifted chip's leads carefully before it will make good, even contact on all pins in the ZIF socket, and even then you have to "snap" the ZIF a few times to get a good connection to read/write. Same applies to fresh flash chips, although not quite as bad as solder-laden pulled chips. Trying to use one in a running, vibrating vehicle? Large pin count SOP ZIF are bench-only gear. You could use a PLCC adapter on EEC-V, though, easiest way to change VINs on them (that I am aware of).

I have a Willem 3 series, does a fine job for ~$40 less than the 4 series, IIRC.

And, no disrespect to real time emulation advocates, but it can lead to slower learning and poorer tuning. With flash based tuning - either pulling chips, or via OBD - you must datalog, think, calculate, and flash. Real time tuners tend to button-fuck things until a symptom goes away, and keep poor track of their changes. Going from tuning a vehicle market dominated by real time emulation of OE ECUs and standalones to the flash based stuff took me a minute to get a good grasp of, but I'm a better tuner for it and in a lot of cases the flash based cars are quicker and easier to tune despite having years less experience with them - go figure.

[helo]

the flash PROM is a fairly common Intel unit(AB28F400B). supposedly, at some point in time AMD units were used and they are 1MB instead of 512KB(AT28F800B)

I think we must have wildly differing definitions of "fairly common." The real problem in my mind is still getting a replacement chip. Show me a 'add to cart' page from a reputable company (newark/digikey). I've yet to find suitable chips for sale, and I refuse to pull the factory chip off a 0411 PCB without a replacement in hand.

Flashing through the OBD-II serial pin or even BDM header is where it's at for us, though I have not yet been able to find the requisite technical information to make it happen. The OBD process is simple: upload program code into RAM (to download the updated calibration data), but I'd much prefer to start from a jumping off point if work has already been attempted (by who??). Durahax claimed he was able to use BDM to pull a .bin from a 0411, but he never posted the details. Not sure if he succeeded with his diesel PCM yet. Also not sure if he was able to write to the flash chip using BDM (would explain why he hasn't posted a detailed success story). He's close to me, I intend to contact him... (I drove through philly yesterday, HEH).

If any of you boys are holding technical infoz, I'd invest some time to make DIY 0411 a reality with beer-ware. I have a 4.8 in the barn with THREE 0411's, and my L31-tbi has a warped head leaking into the cylinders... =(. I will probably end up pulling another L31 soon ($200 + intake gaskets), but only because I'm lacking requisite technical information to h4x0r my 0411's.

I've seen claims that AVT hardware has been used to read+flash a GM PCM, but I REALLY want to see some source code or technical info that would enable me to write the code for 0411 before I blindly buy their hardware (I figure cheaper hardware is looming). AVT-852 is not cost prohibitive, but I'd like to know how to make it work before buying. (i'm an unemployed uberhaxor, actual coding will be the easy part given sufficient reference materials).

Fawq the $500+ roadrunner and highway robbery licensing, DIY 0411 solution is more important to me than utilizing my $300 4.8.
89 suburban, D60/aam10.5, eccc-4l80e/L31-tbi/$0d

[EagleMark]

AVT-852 has been reading and writing OBDII PCM since 2005 with TunerCat OBDII, it's all in the software...

[RobertISaar]

interesting.... the 28F400 used to be a common piece.... guess it's been out of production for a while. there may be a compatible replacement, but i haven't looked into it. a quick look on futurlec shows the 29F400 as being cheap and available... just need to see what all differences there are and if they're important.

[helo]

Tunercat/CATS would be perfect, and I would totally go down that road... if it were 1/10th the current price without silly licensing.

The chips futurelec has are 48 pin tsop 90ns (wrong packaging and "slow"), unless I'm just not finding the page you came up with. I contacted a US supplier that may have surplus 50ns SO-44 chips that happen to be milspec.

Google shopping returns a couple of Chinese vendors that will sell small quantities of SOP-44 70ns chips. The OE 512k/4mbit intel chips were 55ns, but 70ns for the 8mbit version. I may order a few, they take paypal.

[1project2many]

As mentioned, TC uses AVT hardware. AVT Software can be used with TC cable to get version information, cable speed, and to "talk" to pcm. My TC cable is old.., no CAN bus. But it will work with 0411. I remember discussions from years ago, ELM was too slow or maybe not able to do "block transfer." The guys making it happen said "won't happen." That was many moons ago so who knows... Steve Ravet used BDM successfully. No surprise. He was a MotoSemi guy, then moved to ARM. diy-efi pages have tech junkie type notes on doing this. LT1 Edit cable was 68HC908GP32, 68HC58, Max232, and a handful of discretes. IIRC one of those chips needs programming so it takes someone with more skills than I to work out that program (or maybe someone can get the cable?) I have a very strong hunch that cable is similar to what was used by GM once upon a time. Company called Dearborn Group sells many GM OBDII cables. VSI-C2 is J1850 compatible and is probably much closer to commercial development product used by GM engineering. Just today I saw a VSI-C2 for sale for $200, and found a series of auctions running through mid January from a guy trying to sell a cable for $100. Also, you might find an inexpensive USB-OBDII interface cable from a J2354 pass through programmer. Then you'd need drivers and software to communicate but at least you'd have a starting point.

Edit: Just realized that Multiplex Engineering has some interesting cables as well.

[JeepsAndGuns]

highway robbery licensing

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the vin licenceing on the current tuning programs is highway robbery.

[EagleMark]

I've seen claims that AVT hardware has been used to read+flash a GM PCM, but I REALLY want to see some source code or technical info that would enable me to write the code for 0411 before I blindly buy their hardware (I figure cheaper hardware is looming). AVT-852 is not cost prohibitive, but I'd like to know how to make it work before buying. (i'm an unemployed uberhaxor, actual coding will be the easy part given sufficient reference materials).

If you can really write the software to read/write I can give you what needs to be done?

[1project2many]

Looking for more information on Caligula, Medusa, Midas, Perseus. Believed to be GM names for PCM / VCM architectures.