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Thread: Chips in a OBDII PCM?

  1. #1
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Chips in a OBDII PCM?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave w View Post

    Ultimately, if someone really wanted to, the flash chip could be de-soldered from the circuit board and flashed with a new file and re-soldered back to the circuit board.
    dave w
    External Zif socket...

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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    External Zif socket...
    Maybe, the pic below is for a 100 pin ZIF socket. I don't know how many pins would be required for a flash chip, but I'm guessing something on the order of 100 pins is very probable? Actually something like the Moates.net Roadrunner is most likely the path forward for many furture DIY Tuners.

    dave w
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    I'm not sure how to do it but heard Dimented24x7 mention that is what he is doing.

    RoadRunner and TunerPro RT is the unrestricted future. Craig Moates has told me it will run any system with bin work, it has run more then a LS1 PCM already. Now if Robert Saar nAsty1 is being set to run any engine.... so all anyone will need is a nAsty1 RoadRunner and TunerPro RT!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
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    the roadrunner is BASICALLY a LS1 PCM with a permanantly installed emulator.... and since a lot of the GM OBD2 PCMs(ones based on the 68332 processor anyways) are nearly identical, it's not really surprising if it could be moved to other PCMs easily or even using non-native BINs in the LS1 PCM.

    FWIW: an 8-bit, 512KB flash PROM(like what would be found in a LS1 PCM) would require 20 address lines, 8 data lines and a couple of other pins for +5V, ground, chip select, output enable, read/write.... in the end, a little more than 30 pins required. if you can solder PLCC stuff, it's no problem at all.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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    actually, new info, and i should have known, but it's actually a 16 bit PROM... so 16 + 20 + etc = TSOP44 package. the space between the centerlines of the legs on the PROM is .8mm.... i'd like to think i'm damn good with a soldering iron, but that's tiny... doing that without a hot-air solution or otherwise fully computer controlled would be quite difficult.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    There are companies like; QPL http://www.qplpcba.com/default.cfm that have PCB rework capability for IC's like an '0411 flash chip. Several years ago when I was doing the PCB failure analysis for Planar Systems in Hillsboro Or, QPL assembled and re-worked Printed Circuit Boards for Planar Systems. If there was enough interest, I would think QPL would be willing to install flash chip zif sockets to a small volume of automotive Printed Circuit Boards. The challenge I see with an '0411 PCM is having enough clearance in the computer case for the zif socket?

    I'll also comment, the Moates.net Burn2 is not capable of reflashing the flash chip used in an '0411 PCM. A chip programmer similar to the ones offered by BX http://www.batronix.com/shop/program...ogrammers.html would be required along with the required chip adapter http://www.batronix.com/shop/adapter/index.html

    I'm still thinking if / when restrictions for OBDII tuning happen, there will be ways to still continue on with OBDII tuning.

    dave w

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    for that kind of money, the newer Willem units (4 series) will program nearly anything and for significantly less $$$... i believe the Intel 28Fx00 units from the 0411 included.

    i'm sure there is plenty of room inside to just mount a ZIF socket on the surface of the board... based on what i've seen of the internals anyways. if the roadrunner will fit in the case, then a ZIF socket should be no problem. building a little access door so you don't have to open it completely would be a nice addition as well.

    i can see the EPA cracking down on the diesel DPF stuff since it's all relatively new, but general gasoline tuning? wouldn't count on it.... if they had put their foot down when the subject was new, it would be effective, but not now... it's too widespread for them to have any hope of stopping it. CARB is ridiculous and they still aren't able to detect/deal with a lot of it.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Looks like the Roadrunner has a header and ribbon cable and board, I know Moates sells the header and would probably sell the ribbon cable? So would that put the chip outside?

    rr_guts_kit.jpg

    Doesn't sound like a lot of wires needed, diagrams are all there...What kind of bin file to run it on another rig? Like OBDI...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
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    Looks like loads of room if Moates can stuff a seperate board in there...

    The guts of the LS1 controller look fairly typical for a modern electronic part. The flash memory chip is labeled "A" and the processor is labeled "B" in the shown photo.
    0702ct_09_z+factory_pcms+.jpg

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    huh..... i actually expected more ICs.... then again, the 68332 on it's own can do a lot more than the 6811 on it's own. there are a LOT of drivers.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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    So what would be the benefit of doing this? I know nothing about OBD2.
    I'm guessing this simply removes the need for flashing through the obd port? What has caused the desire to do this?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    You got it, get around cost or avalaibility of re-flash through OBDII port.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  13. #13
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    The Moates Roadrunner DIY kit is expensive but not out of control.

    Black box Vortec instructions to modify for flashing without using OBDII were on gmecm years ago. Steve Ravet did some initial work with this.
    http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/32bit/dumpflash/

    I've been trying to tell people for years that OBDII is a step backward for tuning if you're only using the OBDII connection for programming. You lose all ability for real time emulating and changing the cal takes more time than burning and changing an eprom. The BDM flash is likely to be faster but Steve's instructions, like many from tech guys, make a lot of assumptions about knowledge and skill level of the user.

    The ability to pull the chips out and make changes, however, means you will always have a way to modify your calibrations even if software to change through OBDII port is stopped. It's definitely worthwhile to work out a solution. Here's the first part of a hardware solution, a header which allows you to move the flash chip off the board:
    http://www.moates.net/roadrunner-diy...on-header.html

    Then you might be able to use a ribbon cable to move the connection point away from the board. Looks like at least one person on thirdgen is doing something similar. Luckily a 44 pin ribbon cable is fairly standard in the PC world so short pre-made cables are easy to locate:
    http://www.cablesonline.com/44pinlapinri.html


    Some good reading:
    http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....-install-today
    http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....t-installation
    From here, there is a nice link to a page with pictures (because we all love pictures)
    http://www.florida4x4.com/tech/rr-guts/

    Of course, we're not looking to install the Roadrunner, only to install something such as a ZIF socket or ribbon cable. One approach might be to modify a GM memcal and install a ZIF or the proper flash chip on one end while leaving the other end unpopulated. Pin spacing would determine how difficult this is.

    There are several tools available which appear to allow programming the PSOP44 44 pin flash device using a standard eprom programmer. They appear to be from China but maybe the cost is worth it:
    http://www.dhgate.com/chip-programme...112a84964.html
    http://www.oobdii.com/other-obd2-veh...-socket-psop44
    Here's one for a Willems programmer:
    http://tekdevice.com/chapter2/index....&product_id=55
    Here's one that you complete:http://www.sivava.com/B09_Adapter.html

    Of course, once you get this done it all begs the question of why can't you use your existing emulator? I'm sure some digging around might find those answers or enough clues to figure it out. Problems with timing, communications speed, and device storage capacity are all possibilities that come to mind. But one step at a time, of course.

    HTH
    Last edited by 1project2many; 01-13-2013 at 09:01 PM.

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    Fuel Injected! Lextech's Avatar
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    I have the Moates LS1b RoadRunner PCM but, haven't used it yet. I have been told that you can flash it with a 512kb (99-02) or a 1mb (03-07) calibration. My truck is put away for the winter but, I hope to play around with the RR this summer.

    Jeff
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    I've got a RR sitting here as well waiting to install in my vortec truck thanks to your work on the conversion!

    But I've actually broke some new ground with the 98-00 vortec PCM on EFI Live forum and have the Calc VE Calc MAF and almost the AutuTune tutorials working for the Vortec. One piece of info has been missing the whole time to make it work, it's the commanded AFR! It's named wrong in the Scan Tool so no one has been able to make it work. Right now we have a request in for MORE PAREMTERS, which are there, just not installed by EFI Live. Right now I'm using a cross of EFI Live, TunerCat and Hex from the Disasembly and it all works!

    Once it's done the Road Runner is going in!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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