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Thread: TBI Chip 1983 CJ 7 with 1990 350 TBI having chip proram issues

  1. #46
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    First off let me start by saying how much I enjoy this site. I have only been a member for about a month and my learning curve on EFI and being able to use a program like Tuner Pro is and continues to go straight up.

    I come on here to learn and educate myself so that I can gain the knowledge to better understand EFI and maybe someday contribute back to the forum through my experiences. I realize right now I am more of leech just trying to soak up as much as possible. Also I really appreciate how helpful everyone on this forum has been and how I haven’t seen any condescending comments to the newbies that I have seen on many other forums.

    In fact I would like to publicly thank David of Old School EFI he has been very helpful, when I was having some issue learning how to use Tuner Pro he sent me a PM offering his assistance and spent at least an hour or two over the phone helping me to better understand the program and how to use some of its tools and for offering his services to sort out any issue I may have.

    However, as much as I understand the frustration created by TBI chips, I am in no way interested in coming onto a public forum and bashing anyone. But with that said I have no problem honestly discusses the successes and problems I am having so that other can make their own opinion on the services he provides. I try to be more of a glass half full kind of a person (I don’t always succeed but I try) if it had not been for me and others like me having issues we may have never found this site and would still be completely in the dark when it comes to EFI and still completely dependent and susceptible to being taking by someone calming they got what it takes. Besides some of the issues I have had with my conversion, I am sure will help someone else out with their project. So if nothing else that is worth something.

    Eaglemark as to your last post, all of what you said does help and I do understand most of what you are saying.

    As far as the timing issues go I have already thought about the total advance being added to the base setting and yes I do discontent the distributor/computer wire when I set the timing and also disconnect the battery to clear the code afterward. I really feel the 11 deg base timing is wrong because I don’t believe there is any way I could put 40+ degs of advanced timing into this motor without it pinging, backfiring or something. Plus the plug readings don’t show any signs of the timing being too far advanced either. I know from tuning carbureted motors they will tell you what it wants and what it doesn’t want if you listen and for whatever reason this motor wants more timing. Yes I do realize that the programed timing tables don’t seem to match the motors needs.

    To be honest I think there has to be something else happening. This weekend I plan to pull the plugs and use my adjustable piston stop tool I made to find TDC and make sure the groove on the balancer is in line with the 0 on the tab. Also I have been using a dial back timing light from Snap-On that I have had for over 18 years and I have never compared it against another light to make sure it is calibrated correctly. I actually ordered me a new battery powered single wire timing light today and a timing degree tape for the balancer so that I can better read the timing without having to use a dial back style light.

    I am glad you explained the ALDL cable but I had actually already somewhat figured it out when I was browsing through the forum the other day and seen a thread where one on the members was showing a cable that he makes and sells with a switch to turn off the 10k resistor. When I saw that the light above my head lit up and then understood what you were talking about earlier when you said to turn the 10K off on the cable. I wish there had been a link to buy that cable on the Tuner Pro Tutorial, because I would have purchased it instead of the one I got. If I am going to continue to use Tuner Pro is this something I need to buy or is there an alternative to work with the cable I have already purchased?

    Again I appreciate your comments and honesty.

  2. #47
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Some vehicles need 10k to start data flowing and some need it on always. Your's never needs it for data and puts the ECM in ALDL mode. Maybe there is a way to remove the 10k from the cable you have?

    Robert just started selling those cables after making them privately for quite some time.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  3. #48
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Thanks Mark,
    I appreciate it.

  4. #49
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    Timing tables are important. The pics below are a comparison of some chips I have experience with.

    One follows conventional 3D timing, and another seems less conventional?

    dave w
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dave w; 02-16-2013 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #50
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Thought I would post some updates.

    Up until about 3 or 4 weeks ago I continued to give TBIchips every opportunity to get the program correct and after 6 chips he did finally get it to run pretty good but it still had some problems and I could tell from other post on here and the way he was answering some of my questions going any farther was most likely going to be a waste of my time and a waste of gas doing data logs.

    However Dave W of Old School EFI has come to the rescue. He has programed me a couple of chips and has gotten it very close clearing up many of the issues I was having. I can’t think him enough; even while I was still dealing with TBIchip he gave me advice and helped me to understand some of the data I was recording.

    I have been doing a lot of data logging and have been careful to make sure things like timing and fuel pressure are staying the same. But I kept noticing my fuel pressure changing slightly from time to time and also noticed my spark plugs readings indicated that the AC r44lts spark plugs are too cold. I think the fuel pressure issue is due to running the stock spring with the adjustable set up I made. It is easy to adjust from 13lbs and down but when I get above 14lbs it gets real sensitive and hard to fine tune. I think the spring is too soft so I ordered a new 15lbs spring; hopefully it will be in tomorrow. I feel pretty confident once I get these issues fixed and some more data logging Dave will be about one or two chips away from getting it dialed in.

    I have to admit I have been very tempted to buy the hardware from Moates so that I could try and program my own chip and I have no question with the help available on this site I could have done it. But for as busy as I stay already I don’t know where I would have found the time. So going with Old School EFI for me was the right choice.

    Once Dave gets my final tune programed I will make sure to let everyone know how good it turns out.

  6. #51
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Wanted to post some updates.

    I have been working with dave w and with his tuning skills he has gotten everything sorted out and running real good now. However during this 6 month ordeal I have learned that the tuning process can last as long as you want to keep messing with it. Dave has been very patent with me and between him and this forum I now have a pretty basic understanding of the tuning process. Well at least on my 7747 ecm.
    It is so funny now because everywhere I go in the Jeep, whoever is riding shoot gun has a lap top in their lap recording data with TunerPro.

    I just recently started really understanding Dave’s method of tuning using excel and decided to get a Burn2 so that I can start burning my on chips.

    Dave sold me a used ecm with the chip adapter already soldered in it and a since I wasn’t running a knock sensor he sent me a sensor and ESC. This past weekend I got it all installed, it will be a big help if I decide to start playing with timing tables.

    Along the way I have had to address a lot of small issues; like building an adjustable regulator with correct spring, machined a TBI adapter to replace the vacuum leaking one I had and replaced a worn-out distributor. Plus I have had somewhat of a cooling issue ever since I put the 350 in the Jeep and it only got worst with the new engine. I had been running an aluminum 2 row cross flow radiator with an electric fan. But over the weekend after some mods to the grill shell I replaced it with a new aluminum 3 row down flow with an external trans cooler and a stock clutch fan. Then I had to build a custom 2 piece aluminum shroud. Hopefully my cooling woes are over with.

    Here are some pics of some of the things I have done or had to build.

    Adjustable regulator I made





    TBI Adapter I machined





    ECU mounted in my console I built


    With wire cover installed

    With the ECU cover installed


    ESC and knock sensor installed with brass elbow




    New Radiator install

    I had to cut the mounting tabs off of new radiator and weld on new ones to fit the grill


    I had to trim some out of the grill so that I could mount the radiator more forward and have plenty of room to run a stock fan.


    Welded some tabs on the back of the grill so that I could mount the trans cooler directly to the grill




    The 2 piece shroud I built mounted to the radiator




    I still have a pair of Dana 60 I narrowed 5 “ with all the hardcore goodies installed waiting to go under it. This summer will make 4 years since I have gotten to go wheeling around Silverton Colorado. Next year I will be there.

  7. #52
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    I have really been having fun learning to use TunerPro and discovering all the cool features it offers.
    I have had a good tune in the Jeep for a while now (Thanks to Dave w). But I keep making subtle changes each time it seems to make improvements. Recently I noticed that my VE tables had some upper level cells at 99.61. I realized this meant I needed to add more fuel pressure.
    So I used Marks TBI Calculator and it confirmed I needed more fuel psi.

    I went from 15 psi to 16psi keeping BPW at 116 with an injector bias of .396. Then spent some time retuning the VE table and had the BLMs running really consistently at or very close to 128 throughout. The VE table still has some upper cells around 94. This definitely made an improvement and is probably just about perfect. But me not being one to leave well enough alone I think it my need a little more. I believe with engine build I have, it should be close to 300 hp at 5000 rpm.

    So if I am using the calculator correctly. (I am assuming that BPC is the same as BPW)
    I need to set the fuel pressure to 17 psi with a BPW of 113 and a injector bias of .408 to acomadate 300 hp.
    Could some one with more knowledge than I, look at this and make sure I am using the calculator correctly. (I had my injector tested resulting in 69.3 lbs @ 14.5 psi)


    TBI Calculator.jpg
    Last edited by devind; 08-05-2013 at 03:20 PM.

  8. #53
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Yes BPW and BPC are same.

    The way your doing this is correct. But you have to remember whenever you reduce the BPC you are taking away fuel. These calculations are for correct size injectors on engine rated HP so a little fudging is in order. Also the lower BPC is the higher the RPM will go before injectors going static = always open.

    WHen doing your data logs at WOT high RPM watch Injector Duty Cycle % in history tables.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  9. #54
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Yes BPW and BPC are same.

    The way your doing this is correct. But you have to remember whenever you reduce the BPC you are taking away fuel. These calculations are for correct size injectors on engine rated HP so a little fudging is in order. Also the lower BPC is the higher the RPM will go before injectors going static = always open.

    When doing your data logs at WOT high RPM watch Injector Duty Cycle % in history tables.
    Okay Thanks,

    I very seldom will ever run this thing much over 4200 rpm. But for tuning purposes I occasionally have ran it up to 5000 rpm. This is actually one of the things that made me realize I needed to make a change because I noticed it took the injector duty cycle up to 96%.

    So according to the calculator I will increase fuel pressure, reduce the bpw and increase the injector bias to correct the problem.



    Another question while I got you.

    I am still planning on buying a wide band and an emulator. Dave said in his opinion a wide band and an Ostrich 2 is all I need and I put a lot of value into anything Dave tells me.
    However I keep getting hung up on the fact I can link the wide band through the auto prom and into TunerPro. To me this seems like a really cool feature.

    When you link the wide band into TunerPro does it actually allow you to record the wide band data with the other data or does it just allow you to view it while recording data?

  10. #55
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Just because you seldom run above 4200 RPM, does not mean it should not be tuned. There's always the days when testosterone runs high and the foot get's heavy! It's also the worst part to run lean.

    Even if you have PE turned off? It's hard to tune the upper RPM because it goes OL, so no BLM feedback. This is where the wide band is the only tool that works! You can get an idea from NB voltage in this situation and look to keep it around .850 to .950 volt. Still not accurate like a WB.

    There was an issue with recorded data from AutoProm AD channels when I did this write up...
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...up-in-TunerPro!
    It was only 160 Baud systems like your 1227747, but 8192 Baud worked fine. IIRC it has been fixed by TunerPro?

    If you can't get data in like if you have an Ostrich then you need to log AFR with other software, like Innovate LogWorks. Since most of what you do with WB is WOT (you've already done all other by BLM feedback from Narrow Band O2 sensor) it's fairly easy to use those logs and adjust the PE tables. Remember PE tables are based off 14.7 AFR, if you've changed your Stoich/Desired AFR to E fuel and 14.13, then a good starting point for the PE table is 11.9. This equates to Lambda .86 Same as if you used gasoline /non E and had 14.7 Desired and 12.5 in PE table it would still read .86 Lambda.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  11. #56
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    EagleMark;26371]Just because you seldom run above 4200 RPM, does not mean it should not be tuned. There's always the days when testosterone runs high and the foot get's heavy!
    Not I

    It's also the worst part to run lean.
    I do realize that and that's why I want to get the Wide band and learn to use it correctly to tune with.


    Even if you have PE turned off? It's hard to tune the upper RPM because it goes OL, so no BLM feedback. This is where the wide band is the only tool that works! You can get an idea from NB voltage in this situation and look to keep it around .850 to .950 volt. Still not accurate like a WB.

    There was an issue with recorded data from AutoProm AD channels when I did this write up...
    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...up-in-TunerPro!
    It was only 160 Baud systems like your 1227747, but 8192 Baud worked fine. IIRC it has been fixed by TunerPro?


    If you can't get data in like if you have an Ostrich then you need to log AFR with other software, like Innovate LogWorks. Since most of what you do with WB is WOT (you've already done all other by BLM feedback from Narrow Band O2 sensor) it's fairly easy to use those logs and adjust the PE tables.
    So for the most part I just need to do as Dave suggested and go with the Ostrich 2 and the wide band (LM-2)?

    Remember PE tables are based off 14.7 AFR, if you've changed your Stoich/Desired AFR to E fuel and 14.13, then a good starting point for the PE table is 11.9. This equates to Lambda .86 Same as if you used gasoline /non E and had 14.7 Desired and 12.5 in PE table it would still read .86 Lambda.
    I thought about changing the Stoich to 4.13 but because I was unsure of what else it would effect in the tune I decided to leave well enough alone. Is the PE AFR the only other changes required?

    While we are discussing PE and AE, are there any threads that discuss the tuning procedures required to tune them? I have some basic ideas but it would sure be nice to have some more detail info. So far the most I have read on the subject is in the parameter comments.

    For example in the scalars you have PE tuning Dave currently has mine set at 168 and a stock ANLW bin is at 129. What do these numbers represent and how do they affect the PE?

  12. #57
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I thought about changing the Stoich to 4.13 but because I was unsure of what else it would effect in the tune I decided to leave well enough alone. Is the PE AFR the only other changes required?
    Stoich is the first thing that should be changed in all tunes if your using E fuel.

    Yes, Stoich and PE-AFR are only changes needed to start tuning. It will make your tune overall richer, which is probably needed since your still have some 94% in VE tables. I like them to stay under 90%.

    Remember VE does not adjust fuel!

    VE is Volumetric Effeiciecy of cylinders filling with air. Fuel is a calulation. Fuel calculation starts with Stoich or Desired AFR...

    For example in the scalars you have PE tuning Dave currently has mine set at 168 and a stock ANLW bin is at 129. What do these numbers represent and how do they affect the PE?
    PE-Tuning *Read Me* is not a paremeter, it's just a title with some notes, I just added *Do Not Adjust* to the parameter box like I have on all other Title Notes.

    To get a better view on parameters in TunerPRo look at Parameter Tree and choose Parameter category! It's not set up in all XDF but I spent a lot of time getting things in order here.

    The adjustment to PE is "PE-AFR" This changes your Stoich AFR to what is desired when ECM enters PE. This is pretty easy with WB and usually the table is same AFR top to bottom.

    There are some threads on AE, it's a little more complicated and harder to dial in perfect on 7747 type ECM because of data rate at 1.2 seconds.

    Opening throttle and pop is lean, this will show on WB as higher AFR or lambda. Opening throttle and bog is rich, this will show on WB as lower AFR or lambda.In a perfect world AE would be adjusted to compensate for extra air entering engine during throttle transition so AFR/Lambda stays steady at desired Stoich or Desired PE AFR without any spikes or dips. This is not a perfect world and that is hard to acheive.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  13. #58
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Mark,

    Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

    This really isn’t about tuning the Jeep anymore because Dave helped me do that. It’s about catching the EFI tuning bug.
    I am consumed with learning more and more about tuning EFI in general now. It is so cool how I can have a good tune, save it, and then just get on the laptop and continue to make small changes to see what happens. If it improves I add it to the tune if not try something else.

    I am still curious about the Scalar “PE Tuning”. I understand you have it noted “Do Not Adjust”. But I still would like to know what the numbers represent. I may check with Dave to see why there is a difference, because he basically just retuned the chip I bought from TBIchips (fixing all the issues with it). Most of the areas I have compared with the ANLW bin are the same. But like I mentioned above the ANLW is set at 129 and the tune Dave fixed for me is set at 168. I wish I new what the different numbers do and represent.

    Again I really appreciate the help and advice. I am sure when the LM-2 and Ostrich 2 arrive I will have many more questions so please bear with me.

  14. #59
    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    When we use a Scaler, Flag or Table as a title or for info it is a cheat to add a title or info. Look at the hex address? 0x00, this is the checksum address and may change every time you change something in the bin and save it as TunerPro calculates a new checksum.

    Oh I know you caught the EFI Tune bug!

    Pretty sure we gave you the warning it can become addicting... you have also done very well in your short period of time with this!

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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