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Thread: TBI Chip 1983 CJ 7 with 1990 350 TBI having chip proram issues

  1. #1
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    TBI Chip 1983 CJ 7 with 1990 350 TBI having chip proram issues

    Not for sure if I should post this here or in TunnerPro???

    But here is what I have: a 1983 Jeep CJ 7 Trail Rig (still street legal) I have been running a stock TBI 350 with the 700r that came out of a 1990 K5 Blazer for the last several years. I used a wiring harness and a custom chip from Affordable Fuel injection. Chip was programed for EGR and knock sensor deleted.

    About a year ago the motor developed a miss and was down on power. That is what got me started on making some upgrades. Long story short I ended upcompletely rebuilding the engine.

    Here is the info on new engine mods.

    Motor and transcame out of: 1990 K5 Blazer

    Engine Size: Chevy 350 bored .030 over (355ci) running flat top pistons with a std. volume / high pressure oil pump.

    Fuel injection: TBI that was shaved and bored to 46mm by RV Morse Machine (# off of TB 126x64)with stock injectors, adjustable regulator and pressure gauge. Desired idle 700 rpm with the capability to energizethe A/C high idle wire through a toggle switch to raise the rpm to an high idle of 1400 rpm. I will use this as a crawl type of cruise wired through a brakeswitch to disconnect the high idle when the brakes are applied.

    Intake Manifold: Jegs dual plane
    http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/513002/10002/-1?parentProductId=
    With throttle body bolted to it through an adapter
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVY-TBI-FUEL-INJECTION-4-BARREL-ADAPTER-5-7-350-HOLLEY-EDELBROCK-NEW-USA-/300835626562?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories &vxp=mtr&hash=item460b335e42

    Fuel Pump: A stock GM in-tank fuel pump used on a1996 vortec truck.

    Throttle Body: StockGM bored to 46mm, stock injectors, adjustable regulator with gauge running 18psi.

    Camshaft specs: CompCam 12-232-3
    http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=98&sb=2

    Rocker Arms: Hartland Sharp roller rockers 1.5 to 1

    Heads: Dart vortec replacement heads built with stock size stainless steel valves and machined for .550 lift springs. No porting just matched intake runners to intake manifold runners.

    Spark plugs: Doesn’t seem to be a lot of options for these heads currently running some Champion RS12YC @ .045 gap. I am thinking of changing to some Autolite AR 103 once I get everything sorted out.

    Compressing ratio: 9.25 to 1 EGR: no EGR Knock Sensor: No Thermostat Temp: 180 deg

    Exhaust System: Medium length 1.5” headers to 2” Y pipe to 3”single no Cat.

    Transmission: 700r custom built with heavy duty clutch packs.

    Torque Convertor: IROCconvertor

    Gear Ratios: currently 4.56 to 1 but soon to be 5.13 to 1 (I have some Dana 60 axle built and ready toinstall just trying to get motor issues fixed first)

    Tire diameter: currently 38” but soon to be 39.5”

    Transfer Case: Stak Monster Box with 3 ranges 1 to 1, 3.1 to 1 and 5 to 1 (uses a 2003 to 2006 JeepWrangler VSS) I would like to figure this into the program of the chip so that it will tell the trans to lock up torque convertor at 60 mph when in high gear.
    http://www.stak4x4.com/Transfer_Cases/3speed.htm

    Computer Info: remanufactured unit from O’Reilly’s #7-7747, DC Code 0906mt and # frominside 077747000622490010

    Original Chip: Original chip # ANLW 546S (S might be an 8hard to tell). I am currently running a custom chip from TBICHIP.com

    With this chip the motor pulls extremely hard and revs out very strong on the top end. But the problem is that I am getting horrible fuelmileage (5 mpg); it seems to be running very rich at idle and lower rpms. Also seems to be kind of flat and sluggish right off of idle up to about 1500 rpm (I feel it is to rich).
    Also having to run a base timing of 8 degs btdc which seems strange but the motor did not run well at all with anything less than 6 deg and ran the best with as much as 10 degs. I know that is a lot of timing but the motor likes it and I have heard no signs of detonation. In addition I keep getting a trouble code #43 because I guess he failed to program it for no knock sensor.
    I have spoken to Brain @TBI.Com and acts like it is no big deal and just recommends sending the chip back for a few tweaks and setting it up for a 3 wire heated o2 sensor to help out with mileage. At this point I am already kind of stuck with having to deal with TBI.com who knows, what he wants to do might work but Ihave noticed some other people on this site having similar problems so I am concerned on what I should do. I really wish I had found this site before I had spent the money having the chip programed.


    I am currently trying to learn how to use TunnerPro so that I can do some data logging. That is how I actually came to find this site. So far as for learning to use TunnerPro I have to admit I am overwhelmed with all the info and am having a hard time making sense of it all. I have been trying to down load some data log that other have posted on this site so that I could try and get a feel for how the program works but thus far I have not succeeded.

    I have read the tutorial several times along with otherthreads but I am still lost.

    Any help would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by devind; 01-08-2013 at 07:47 AM.

  2. #2
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    Nice build!

    I have a few questions, but first did you data log to get the custom chip?

    What is your fuel pressure?

    If you set your timing to other then 0 then it has to be accounted for in chip.

    Are those heads Vortec or TBI?

    Why did you choose a Marine Cam?

    Knock seonsors are your friend, you can add one.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  3. #3
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    With TunerPro RT open go to File, Open Bin and find your bin you downloaded from the info thread I gave you in other post.

    With TunerPro still open go to XDF and Select XDF and find the file you downloaded.

    Both of those instructions let you look at, modify, and screw up a bin file, a bin file is what is on the chip.

    With TunerPro still open go to Acquisition, Load Definition file and find the ADX file you downloaded. This is the data logging half of the program. You are now ready to data log if you have a cable to hook to vehicle.

    To see what data looks like in Monitors, Dash boards, Item lists, History tables etc... go to Acquisition, Load Log file and find the xdl file downloaded from info thread. Acquisition Play/Pause or use the icons in Tool Bar.

    Speaking of tool bar right click on a=it and choose everything! Then Hoover over the icon and it will tell you what it is, same as going into Menu items like File, Acquisition, Play/Pause ETC... much easier...

    Push some buttons and play! Can't screw anything up as all you have right now are test files.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  4. #4
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Nice build!

    I have a few questions, but first did you data log to get the custom chip?

    What is your fuel pressure?

    If you set your timing to other then 0 then it has to be accounted for in chip.

    Are those heads Vortec or TBI?

    Why did you choose a Marine Cam?

    Knock seonsors are your friend, you can add one.
    No I did not data log to get program (was not recomended by TBI.Com)

    Fuel is 18 to 19 psi recommended by TBI.com

    Did run while at @ 0 but it would fall on its face when I would try to accelerate so Brain recommended advance timing as much as 12 deg (seemed wrong to me but I tried it and it helped)

    Yes I now have vortec heads.

    I explained my who build to comp cams and they said this cam would best fit my needs

    When I first did this swap with the stock TBI motor several years ago Affordable Fuel Injection recommended me doing this way and the wiring harness was not built to add one in.
    Last edited by devind; 01-08-2013 at 07:49 AM.

  5. #5
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    You didn't say if yiou data logged for a custom chip?

    Fuel is 18 to 19 psi
    Makes a difference in how to calibrate a chip, get a reading. 18 should handle this motor fine.

    Did run while at @ 0 would fall on its face when Iwould try to accelerate so Brain recommended advance timing as much as 12 deg (seemed wrong to me but I tried it and it helped)
    You were right and he was wrong.

    When I first did this swap with the stock TBI motor several years ago Affordable Fuel Injection recommended me doing this way and the wiring harness was not built to add one in.
    Wrong again, they just sold you one that was built that way.

    I explained my who build to comp cams and they said this cam would best fit my needs
    Well at least that was good info. Marine cams are great low idle, low RPM tourque cams. You would have been batter off with a stock TBI and not bored for the low RPM response.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  6. #6
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    With TunerPro RT open go to File, Open Bin and find your bin you downloaded from the info thread I gave you in other post.

    With TunerPro still open go to XDF and Select XDF and find the file you downloaded.

    Both of those instructions let you look at, modify, and screw up a bin file, a bin file is what is on the chip.

    With TunerPro still open go to Acquisition, Load Definition file and find the ADX file you downloaded. This is the data logging half of the program. You are now ready to data log if you have a cable to hook to vehicle.

    To see what data looks like in Monitors, Dash boards, Item lists, History tables etc... go to Acquisition, Load Log file and find the xdl file downloaded from info thread. Acquisition Play/Pause or use the icons in Tool Bar.

    Speaking of tool bar right click on a=it and choose everything! Then Hoover over the icon and it will tell you what it is, same as going into Menu items like File, Acquisition, Play/Pause ETC... much easier...

    Push some buttons and play! Can't screw anything up as all you have right now are test files.

    Okay thanks I will play around with it tomorrow.

  7. #7
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    You didn't say if yiou data logged for a custom chip?

    Makes a difference in how to calibrate a chip, get a reading. 18 should handle this motor fine.

    You were right and he was wrong.

    Wrong again, they just sold you one that was built that way.

    Well at least that was good info. Marine cams are great low idle, low RPM tourque cams. You would have been batter off with a stock TBI and not bored for the low RPM response.
    I went back and added it:
    No there was no data logging done.

    Also Brain is recomending a 3 wire o2 sensor

  8. #8
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    A three wire/heated O2 seonsor will not hurt a thing. It only helps keep O2 sensor hot enough to stay Closed Loop Idle. It's also recommended as a cover up for overly rich idle that will cool a non heated O2 sensor and go Open Loop and run bad because fueling/spark is so far off.

    No data log = NOT custom chip. Just another off the shelf chip we have seen many times before... every one I have seen had hardly any changes, some were just plain wrong. Although I already knew this when you told us about the playing with timing...

    Sorry for the news. You are not the first nor will you be the last. But you are on the road to recovery and a good running engine! Whether you want to learn or hire a tuner (or both) to do this properly your at the right place.

    Now do you have a cable to hook to a laptop and data log? You need data! How can you tune anything that you don't know is there?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  9. #9
    Super Moderator dave w's Avatar
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    One idea I have is to set you up with a TunePro plug and play ready Laptop? Some of the people I've helped liked having a computer that was ready to data log. Maybe you have a spare laptop you'd like set up for TunerPro?

    It's been my personal experience, that near stock fuel pressures work fine for an engine like yours. The most important fuel parameter in the chip program is the Base Pulse Width (BPW). Getting the initial BPW parameter set correctly is mostly a math problem. The example below is a 383 with 454 injectors. There are a few challenges I have with BPW, not all injectors flow at the rate they are advertised, figuring out what the injector is actually flowing, and lastly what the computer thinks / needs the BPW programmed for. To me, figuring BPW is like comparing apples, oranges, and bananas.
    1 pound per hour = 0.125997881 grams per second
    0.78375 383 cubic inches = 6.27 liters / 8 cylinders
    106.9533 BPW = 1461.5 x (cyl vol / inj flow rate )
    10.70982 Conversion 85 lbs /hr to grams per second


    dave w

  10. #10
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    Y’all have no idea how much I appreciate your help.

    Here is where I am at right now. I spoke with my credit card company today to see if I can dispute this purchase of the chip from TBIChips and I was told I had up to 60 days to do so.

    As much as I would like to just be done with it, I have to play the game of sending the chip back to him and giving him the opportunity to make it right. But first I am working on getting an older laptop today so that I can have one dedicated for data logging and I already ordered a cable the other day (that is how I actually came to find this site). Once I get the data logging figured out I will pull a data log from my Jeep so that I can share with you but to also send to Brain and give him an opportunity to fix it and make it right. However I am not going to keep going back and forth with him like I have noticed others on this site do and be stuck with a $270 chip that doesn’t work. I figure this may take a couple of weeks to play out. Meantime with your help I plan to learn more about TunerPro and get a better under standing of what is involved in burning my own chips.

    As far as not having a knock sensor, when I first did this conversion several years ago it was explained to me that if I was planning on running headers (which I was) that the knock sensor would not work well and would pick up false reading and would end up hurting me than helping me. At time I knew very little and trusted the man selling me the chip and wiring harness. Of course so often that is how I learn. I now know different. Hopefully we can work around this problem and create a program that will perform well with out it and without any detonation issues.

    If I understand correctly the timing curve is programmed into the chip so when I advance the base timing I am moving the whole curve by that amount. For example if at 0 deg base timing I have a total of 30 deg of timing advance when I move the timing back 8 deg I now have a total advance of 38 deg plus the initial timing will also be moved back 8 deg. Because right now after checking my timing with the motor revved up and the timing at total advance I have 38 deg. I knew when he told me to do this it didn’t sound right but I was amazed that it did work and there is no sign of detonation that I can notice even after lugging the motor hard and trying to make it clatter I didn’t hear any. But I am sure this summer when the temp is up to 100 deg that will be a different story.

    Its kind of funny people that know me, know that I do my best to do everything myself and very seldom need outside help and if I don’t know how to do something I try and research it and learn it.. But when it came to converting to EFI I just didn’t have a clue and trusted others that seemed to have a reputable reputation once again here I am learning the hard way.
    Last edited by devind; 01-08-2013 at 09:12 AM.

  11. #11
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    As Dave suggested I do set up owner laptops with cables so they are ready to go. Also do live tuning with an emulater and remote desktop connection tuning via wireless internet. Also have one as a loaner but it is out right now.

    When I do them by mail first I send a starter chip. To do anymore I have to have data log or it's all a guess and wasted time and mail, not to mention not tuned right.

    Also he can send you a chip without wating for a return, yes there should be a clause that they all have to be returned in the end. I know why, it's because scam chips has been exposed! We have many! But why make you suffer the wait. Just mail one..... but without data why bother?

    Headers can cause some false knock, most stock 1227747 5.7L engines will have soame false Knock WOT anyway. Even worse and possibly KILLER with your timing curve if the ESC test is left on! It adds 11 degrees timing as a Knock Sensor test at WOT, if no respnse it adds 22 degrees! Just turning off the error code does not turn off the test!

    You can also have Knock long before you can hear it!

    Your scenario of 38 degrees advance with timing light scares me! What happens if PE spark is added (another 5 degrees) which you can not do while under the hood with a timing light? What about decleleration spark? For instance one bin had 39 degrees in 20 MAP column, you moved your distributor 12 degrees, now you have 51 degrees advance during decel and it's firing the wrong cylinder!

    OK now say spark is stock at 16 at idle, you added 12 so now it's 28, then start up spark is added and it's 36!

    Besides 38 degrees is to much advance in a daily driver light car and who knows the quality of fuel, and stupid in your heavy big tire beast. Even if that wasn't a consideration I would never run that much advance with out a knock sensor. Not even close if by mail, little more hands on. I'm a wimp on the safe side but I have yet to hurt a motor. Screw the last 15 HP unless your on a dyno, then still back it off for a daily driver.

    Pull your spark plugs and use a magnifying glass to look for specs (melted metal) on spark plugs.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  12. #12
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    There's a lot of adders and subtracters to timing. But if you want to see actual WOT timing in your chip, rev engine to 3600 RPM and watch timing when you pinch off MAP sensor vacuum line. Without making MAP go to 100 you don't know where your at unless you are watching live data.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  13. #13
    Carb and Points!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    As Dave suggested I do set up owner laptops with cables so they are ready to go. Also do live tuning with an emulater and remote desktop connection tuning via wireless internet. Also have one as a loaner but it is out right now.

    When I do them by mail first I send a starter chip. To do anymore I have to have data log or it's all a guess and wasted time and mail, not to mention not tuned right.

    Also he can send you a chip without wating for a return, yes there should be a clause that they all have to be returned in the end. I know why, it's because scam chips has been exposed! We have many! But why make you suffer the wait. Just mail one..... but without data why bother?

    Headers can cause some false knock, most stock 1227747 5.7L engines will have soame false Knock WOT anyway. Even worse and possibly KILLER with your timing curve if the ESC test is left on! It adds 11 degrees timing as a Knock Sensor test at WOT, if no respnse it adds 22 degrees! Just turning off the error code does not turn off the test!

    You can also have Knock long before you can hear it!

    Your scenario of 38 degrees advance with timing light scares me! What happens if PE spark is added (another 5 degrees) which you can not do while under the hood with a timing light? What about decleleration spark? For instance one bin had 39 degrees in 20 MAP column, you moved your distributor 12 degrees, now you have 51 degrees advance during decel and it's firing the wrong cylinder!

    OK now say spark is stock at 16 at idle, you added 12 so now it's 28, then start up spark is added and it's 36!

    Besides 38 degrees is to much advance in a daily driver light car and who knows the quality of fuel, and stupid in your heavy big tire beast. Even if that wasn't a consideration I would never run that much advance with out a knock sensor. Not even close if by mail, little more hands on. I'm a wimp on the safe side but I have yet to hurt a motor. Screw the last 15 HP unless your on a dyno, then still back it off for a daily driver.

    Pull your spark plugs and use a magnifying glass to look for specs (melted metal) on spark plugs.
    Is the ESC responsible for fuel cut and spark advance in deceleration? And if its not being used in the bin is there any other way fuel cut and spark advance are controlled in deceleration mode?

    Also what would make the high idle work for just a second or so and then return to normal idle with the (B8?) signal wire for A/C having 12 volts?

    Thanks

  14. #14
    EFI GearHead ! EagleMark's Avatar
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    ESC only handles spark retard from knock counts.

    Problem is without it, if ESC test has not been patched, test still adds 11.9 degrees at high load (PE) first time and if no response 22.2 second time. You can see the knock counts in data from the test. Test happens once every start up when qualifiers are met.
    ; ESC FAIL
    ;---------------------------------------------
    LD54A FCB 0 ; 0 SEC Eng run time prior to test
    LD54B FCB 120 ; 240 SEC'S, Min time since run enable
    LD54C FCB 235 ; PA count limit
    ;
    LD54D FCB 23 ; 2.3 SEC'S, EST fail test period
    LD54E FCB 3 ; TEST DURATION
    ;
    LD54F FCB 55 ; 84c, 183f ERR 43 TEMP LIMIT
    LD550 FCB 34 ; 105c, 221f ERR 43 HOT TEMP LIMIT
    ;
    LD551 FCB 128 ; 3200 RPM LIMIT
    LD552 FCB 195 ; 82 Kpa MAP LIMIT (TBL)
    ;---------------------------------------------
    ; SA TO FORCE KNK FOR TEST
    ;---------------------------------------------
    LD553 FCB 34 ; 11.9 Deg SA TEST SPK1ST Pwr Enr MODE
    LD554 FCB 63 ; 22.2 Deg SA TEST SPK 2ND Pwr Enr MODE
    There's no DFCO (Deceleration Fuel Cut Off) or DE (Deceleration Enleanment) spark, it's all inclusive of the Main Spark Advance table, but there is 13 Scalers and 4 tables to handle DFCO and DE fuel.

    Also what would make the high idle work for just a second or so and then return to normal idle with the (B8?) signal wire for A/C having 12 volts?
    It's a secret!

    When I left AFI about 10 years ago he couldn't do it. I figured it out...

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

  15. #15
    Fuel Injected! devind's Avatar
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    I have to say the information on the site is both very informative but also very overwhelming. It seems like as I read through different threads for every question I find an answer for I end up with 10 more question.

    Yesterday I was working on trying to get an old laptop so that I can do some data logging when the cable I order arrives. When I got home I remembered my wife had bought an old Dell laptop at a garage sell (I thought it was just a waste of $30 when she bought it home) but I pulled it out of the closet and fired it up. I could not believe when it came on there was already a data logging program already on it (Data Masters) there was some old receipts and paperwork in the case, apparently the previous owner had bought the laptop off of ebay just to do data logging with, pretty ironic if I say so myself.

    As far as using Tuner Pro I was able to download some files and play with it some I even downloaded a data log and was able to see it work too.

    I have to be honest though as much as I would like to learn how to do my own programming. With me being so computer illiterate and having so many irons in the fire working and trying to run a business I can’t see me being able to dedicate all the time necessary to do mine. If it was more of a stock program maybe, but with my set up already having so many modification like Vortec heads and with sensors like the knock sensor being deleted I think it would be so overwhelming I would not be able to do it. To be honest that is why I tried to use a plug and play option by ordering a chip through TBI chips.

    But I am up to learning to doing some data logging and getting the necessary equipment to do some remote chip burning. That way I can learn some of the process and gain a little more understanding of it all. Still I have to admit as computer illiterate as I am this may end up being a major ordeal. As I get closer to that stage I may PM you to find out the cost and details of doing a program this way.

    I have two different customer projects in my shop right now that are still a ways from completion but both have 4.3 GM TBI non Vortec motors in them that will also require tuning when completed. So it worth my while to learn what I can.

    Also when I do pull a data log of the jeep should I put the base timing back to 0?

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